Dumbledore Does Lie - Sort Of

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 159116

> > Alla:
> >
> > That's sort of true, but only sort of IMO, because Dumbledore is
not
> > on equal footing with other people. He can decide to hold off
> > information from everybody and nobody can hold off information
from
> > him, no?
>
> Pippin:
> Are you talking about legilimency, or do you just mean that people
> feel they have to tell Dumbledore whatever he wants to know? Because
> I don't get that at all. Harry certainly keeps information back from
> Dumbledore, the Marauders kept information from Dumbledore
> and continued to do so as Order members, and so on.

Alla:

Both, actually. Harry certainly does not **tell** everything to
Dumbledore, but Dumbledore looks in his eyes way too often for my
taste to be sure that Harry indeed witholds information from him.

As to Marauders, well, yeah, they managed to kept something from
Dumbledore, AFAIK - once, which DD himself calls extraordinary
achievement, I still would not call that equal footing - meaning that
usually Dumbledore gets the information he needs, whether other
person wants him to or not.


> Alla:
> > I guess I would say that **need to know** should be decided
mutually,
> > it should not be strictly up to Dumbledore to decide that.
>
> Pippin:
> Er, how would that work? Dumbledore and whoever discuss things,
> and then Dumbledore obliviates that person if they mutually decide
that
> there's something that person shouldn't have known? :)

Alla:

Er, no - I meant that if person asks him question and feels really
strongly that she needs to know the answer, the question should be
answered, IMO.

Pippin:
> In Harry's case, adults have a responsibility to decide what
> information would be harmful to a child. It isn't fair to the
> child to let the child decide. Dumbledore was wrong not to
> realize that Harry had grown up enough that this sort of protection
> was doing more harm than good, but he wasn't wrong to
> think it was his responsibility to decide.

Alla:

I am glad we agree that Dumbledore was wrong at least partially.

> Pippin:
> But it was like that. Harry knew that Voldemort wanted him dead, but
> he preferred not to think about it. Remember his reaction to the
dream
> he had in GoF? He thought it would sound overly dramatic to say that
> Voldemort had been talking about killing him. I agree that
Dumbledore
> waited too long to tell him, but not by all that much. He wanted to
> wait until Harry could understand his explanation of how the
prophecy
> works and not feel that he was being dragged into the arena by fate.

Alla:

Not to dragged by fate explanation comes in HBP AFAIK and DD already
gives explanation in OOP where he mentions nothing about not being
dragged, no?


> Pippin:
> Dumbledore makes need to know decisions for the Hogwarts staff
> and the Order because managing information is
> one of the things the boss does. Nobody is being forced to work
> for him. If they don't like his style, they can quit.

Alla:

That's easy to say that they can quit IMO. Because they do not just
**work** for Dumbledore, they fight for the Light, for all that's
good, no?

So, if they quit where does that lead them? To Voldemort? I disagree
that if they don't like his style, they can quite ( I mean Order of
Phoenix fighters), because IMO there is nowhere else to go.


Pippin:
There's also
> a bit of a contradiction between wanting Dumbledore to be
> more transparent and wanting him to make people think
> for themselves. If Harry questions what Dumbledore is up
> to, it's because Dumbledore *hasn't* explained himself fully.

Alla:

I lost you here :) Actually lost the meaning of the
word "transparent"? Does it mean explain more fully? Then what is the
contradiction between explaining fully and making people think for
themselves? I'd say there is no contradiction at all. Unless
Dumbledore gives all information, people cannot make informed
decisions IMO.

Pippin:
> Many people are perfectly happy to let someone else do the
> thinking for them. It's not all Dumbledore. When Hermione
> comes up with a plan, do Ron and Harry doubt her? No, they
> just follow along, even though she's led them into trouble
> in the past, because it's easier than thinking for themselves.

Alla:
Um, yes of course. It is not all Dumbledore. Did I mention how much I
wanted to smack all members of OOP at the end of HBP? Like all of
them?
Yeah, I did :)

ETA:

As to not doubting Hermione, well yes way too often they also rely on 
her too much, but I already see the improvements in younger 
generation over the older one. Harry also comes up with plans and 
they do doubt Hermione,whether it is for good or bad, so I would say 
they already show independent thinking, again, maybe that comes out 
wrong sometimes, but I find it so much better than what older Members 
did in regard to Dumbledore.

On another hand, Harry calls himself Dumbledore man through and 
through, so I have a strongest suspicion that  except Snape thing, 
JKR would not let him 
doubt Dumbledore too much in book 7. Too bad if you ask me.


JMO,

Alla