The Statute of Secrecy

[Mike]

No: HPFGUIDX 159141

I thought Dumbledore was taking a real beating on this thread and 
needed a little defending. I picked on a_svirn because in my view 
she was taking the most swings and using the biggest club, nothing 
personal I assure you. :-) Mike.

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote:
>
> > a_svirn:
> > However, the blood projection thing, or, say, that wonderful
> > Voldemort-baiting plan in OOP was another matter entirely. Here
> > Dumbledore again didn't share his plans and intentions with other
> > phoenixes,  <snip>
> > 
> > Mike:
> > They [Order members] are trying awfully hard to fill Harry in  
> > without saying too much.
> 
> Alla:
> 
> <snip> 
> I thought she was not suggesting that other members of the Orders 
> did not know about Prophecy involving Harry, I also think that 
> this bit of information was known, but I am not quite sure  
> actually whether it was thanks to Dumbledore.
> 
> I have a suspicion that as close friend of Potters Sirius knew  
> that and shared. Now, this is nothing more than a speculation and 
> it is entirely possible that Dumbledore chose to share this one,  
> but for some reason it seems plausible to me. <snip>

Mike:
I'm not sure how you arrived at this speculation. Dumbledore is 
obviously the one most likely to have told the Order about the 
prophesy. IMO, neither Sirius nor anyone else besides Snape knew the 
prophesy existed before Dumbledore told them, if he told them.


> Alla:
> But I thought that what a_svirn was saying is that Dumbledore did 
> not share with anybody the reasons why Dumbledore was avoiding  
> Harry all summer and why he decided that Harry needs to study  
> Occlumency, so if you have canon support to the contrary, could  
> you please refer me to it?

Mike:
Reading a_svirn's critique, this is not what she was questioning, 
but I'll answer anyway ;-) Dumbledore admits it was a mistake to 
avoid Harry when he admits that he should have told Harry the 
prophesy sooner. Why he's avoiding Harry is part and parcel with not 
telling him the prophesy but doesn't seem to have anything to do 
with the other Order members. That said, Sirius and Lupin both know 
what's going on between Harry and LV, are fully in favor of Harry 
receiving Occlumency lessons (even from Snape), and don't seem to be 
in the dark in any way.


> > a_svirn:
> > 
> > <snip> They all adopted an attitude that can be summed up in  
> > Lupin's words "It isn't our business to know, it's 
> > Dumbledore's business". <snip>
> > 
> > Mike previously:
> > This is intellectually dishonest. That quote of Lupin's is in 
> > reference to DD not divulging why he trusts Snape, which you 
> > agree with in your preceding paragraph. And it was in HBP, it  
> > has nothing to do with what's going on during OotP. 
> 
> Alla:
> 
> I thought a_svirn was summarising the general attitude of the 
> members of OOP, not just Lupin,so why is it intelectually  
> dishonest, I am wondering?

Mike now:
It is intellectually dishonest to use a quote about something you 
agree with, to prove a point about something *different* that you 
disagree with. It's like if I said "I prefer peaches over plums", 
then you say "Mike doesn't like plums". That may or may not be true, 
but it would be unfair to infer that from what I said.

 
> Mike previously:
> > IMO you depiction of a dictatorial DD is unwarranted and 
> > unfounded. Being the leader and director of the Order 
> > required him to take certain decisions upon himself. But 
> > you have no support for your position that he doesn't open 
> > up the floor for debate during meetings. 
> 
> Alla:
> 
> Oh, I don't know. I had a rather strong feeling for example that 
> Lupin was feeling pretty bitter that he was to go to werewolves. 
> That Sirius would really prefer to tell Harry what was going 
> on ( Ooops, turns he was indeed right). That Sirius would really 
> prefer to fight instead of being locked in the House where he 
> escaped from in his youth and which gave him an awfully big 
> depression, if you ask me.

Mike:
No doubt that Lupin and Sirius would *prefer* to be leading free 
lives uncomplicated by the war with Voldemort, and Sirius would 
*prefer* not to be a wanted man. But Dumbledore asking Lupin to spy 
on the werewolves isn't any reflection on Dumbledore being 
*dictatorial*. And Dumbledore telling Sirius to stay hidden in 12 GP 
is not for Dumbledore's sake. Dumbledore's effort against Voldemort 
does not hinge on whether Sirius gets caught by the Ministry. It is 
Dumbledore trying to protect Sirius for Sirius' sake. Sirius can 
ignore Dumbledore and go out, which he did, and look what happened. 
Sirius was spotted and the Ministry knew he was hiding somewhere in 
London. How does any of this help or hurt Dumbledore's war effort? 
It doesn't affect it at all.

> Alla:
> 
> I had an impression that Mcgonagall really wanted to debate  
> whether Harry should go to Dursleys or not.

Mike:
She did air her views. Dumbledore heard her but disagreed. This is 
irrespective of whether Harry *should* have gone to the Dursleys.

> Alla:
> 
> That Weasleys would prefer Harry to spend more time with them, not 
> with Dursleys.

Mike:
We know the answer to that. Harry himself, at the end of OotP, says 
that he wasn't looking forward to going back to the Dursleys, even 
though he now understood why. And at the end of HBP, Harry is going 
back to the Dursleys again, willingly, in full agreement with 
Dumbledore's wishes.

> Alla:
> 
> The problem  IMO is that they are all good soldiers and if 
> Dumbledore says that this is the best thing to do that means to  
> then that this is the best thing to do for common good, so they 
> **choose** the option Dumbledore wants them to choose, which is 
> often indeed the necessary option, but I really do not get the 
> impression that Dumbledore allows them much of the debate.

Mike:
Like I said above, Dumbledore makes certain decisions as the head of 
the order that are his to make, no debate on these decisions. But 
every leader makes certain decisions by her/himself, that does not 
make them *dictators*, that makes them leaders. This is where I 
disagreed with a_svirn's interpretation of the dynamic.

> Alla:
> 
> In case of Snape Dumbledore **reasons** for protecting him maybe 
> warranted, but I absolutely think that the attitudes that members 
> of OOP adopted indeed means to show us the general attitude they  
> have about Dumbledore's word.
> 
> Also Lupin really really did not struck me as someone who had his 
> say about whether he wants to go to werewolves, but more like 
> someone who convinced himself that he is indeed the only option  
> and it just had to be so.

Mike:
See above. Also, what is wrong with the Order following Dumbledore's 
lead? He has the reputation of being the greatest wizard of his 
times as well as being a genious. I don't necessarily agree with 
these assessments, but I'm not an Order member living in the 
Potterverse. Critiquing from outside the Potterverse, I question a 
lot of Dumbledore's decisions. I don't see the point of having Lupin 
spying on the werewolves. But the important point is that Lupin 
thinks spying on the werewolves should be done, and as distasteful 
as the job is to him, he knows he is the best man for the job.
 
  
> > > a_svirn:
> > > Well, sure, it would have been even better – for the common  
> > > good I mean – if somebody had strangled him in his cradle. 
> > > <snip>
> > 
> > Mike:
> > Curious that someone that is so disgusted with the wizards using 
> > Memory Charms, would even suggest this. I guess that explains 
> > why the wizards have chosen to hide in their own world, with 
> > these attitudes in the *minds of Muggles*.
> 
> Alla:
> 
> Um, maybe I am being really really slow, but I thought that  
> A_svirn was being very ironic here, starting with the whole  
> ethics are what matters for the common good theme.
> 
> I was pretty sure that she was being ironic. 

Mike:
I think a_svirn was being flippant. I was being ironic, or at least 
I was trying. I was stringing together a_svirn's posts, to wit: it's 
unethical for a wizard to use memory charms on Muggles for the 
common good, yet not unethical to commit murder for the common good?
Of course that's absurd. Likewise, I consider it absurd to critisize 
a Potterverse wizard for using a Memory Charm legally (in their 
world) to protect their world and, by extension, the Muggles from 
being thrown into the sanitarium for believing in magic. Please note 
that I use the term "Muggles" not human beings, to distinguish 
between the Potterverse and the RW.