House-elves loyalty

[Steve]

No: HPFGUIDX 159624

---  "Jordan Abel" <random832 at ...> wrote:
>
> > montims:
> > taking it further then - Harry has inherited 12 GP, as
> > well as Kreacher.  Do people believe that if he sells
> > GP, Kreacher remains as "fixtures and fittings" with
> >  the house, and belongs to the new owners?

> Jordan (Random):
> 
> "House-elves come with big old manors and castles and 
> places like that" - one would assume, then, that if the
> Weasleys came into some money and bought such a house,
> they would then have house elves.
> 

bboyminn:

But let us examine /why/ Elves come eith big old manors
and castles. I suspect that humble as they are Elves have
pride. The measure of a house-elf's worth is the quality
of the family he serves. What self-respecting House-Elf
would want to serve a homeless bum? On the other hand, at
the annual House-Elf's Ball (figuratively), who wouldn't 
want the bragging rights to working for an old-money 
pureblood prestigious house like that of Malfoy, Crouch, 
or Black. I'm sure many a drunken brawl has broken out at
the House-Elf's Ball over who serves the best family.

So, in that context, House-Elves coming with big old
manors and castles can be explained in the context of the
family living in that manor or castle.

It is true? Can I prove it? No, but that is my story and
I'm sticking to it. 


> > montims:
> > I would have expected him to stay with the family,
> > notwithstanding all his ancestors' heads...

> Jordan/Random:
> 
> Why? They're house elves, not family elves, and it's 
> never been ambiguous that it refers to "house" literally
> as in the place itself, not "house" as in 
> bloodline/clan/whatever. 
>

bboyminn:

I used the term 'super-patriarch' to refer to the current
supreme authority within a family. His house (the 
building) is the center of his House (the family). Being
tied to the patriarch, means being tie to the house the
patriarch lives in. However, don't you suppose that if
the Patriarch moved into another house, that his current
house-elves would move with him? They seem extremely 
loyal and dedicated to the family members, and I can't
imagine that they would not move together. Especially
when you consider that generations of a bloodline of 
house-elves serve generations of a bloodline of a 
family.

In Sirius's case, being the last of his direct line of
decendancy, that made him the super-patriarch of that 
family. He had more control and authority being in the
directly line than any tangental cousins would have.
Therefore, it is Sirius who decides the fate of the family
fortune and property, and by extension, it is he who 
decides the fate of Kreacher. Kreacher must follow the 
will and the Will of the family patriarch and the family
patriarch said that Kreacher would now serve the House of
Potter, who was also the new owner of all the direct-line
Black family possessions including the Black House.

So, yes, in a sense, Kreacher and the house go together,
but only because the Patriarch of the House willed it to
be so. Under other circumstances, Sirius could have just
as easily have willed that this cousin gets the house, 
this cousin gets the money, and that cousin gets Kreacher. 
Which should indicate, if you accept the premise, that 
Kreacher is property to be willed and directed at the 
discretion of the current leader of the House of Black.


> Jordan/Random:
> The line I quoted above is probably the clearest textual
> evidence one way or the other, but the fact that they're
> based on the Brownies of myth strongly supports this
> view, as is the fact that Harry inheriting Kreacher was
> used as a test as to whether he'd inherited 12GP. If 
> there was a chance that he might have inherited 12GP 
> but not Kreacher along with it, it wouldn't have
> been a very useful test. ...
> 

bboyminn:

I agree with others that the 'Kreacher test' was not a 
test of Kreacher's ownership as a unique and individual
aspect. I think it was a test of the Will and it's 
validity. It was a test as to whether Sirius has the 
authority to determine the fate of the Black family
estate which included Kreacher. Since Kreacher was
bound to obey Harry, it indicated that Sirius not only
had the authority but that he had excersized that 
authority properly; no technical loopholes.


An additional point, someone raise the question, though
I can't find the post at the moment, what would happen
if the Weasley suddenly came into a fortune and were
able to buy a new mansion? Would the house-elves be part
of the mansion or would they have to find house-elves on 
their own?

I think it could go either way. I think it is possible 
the estate of the deceases owner of the mansion may have
included his own house-elves as part of the deal. But it
would be owner's choice, I don't see the elves 
automatically attached to the house.

If the new mansion did not come with elves, then the
Weasleys would just go down to the House-Elf Relocation
Office at the Ministry of Magic and review whatever
house-elves were currently between 'jobs', then select
one or two that suited them. While not specifically
stated, it is likely that the 'House Elf Relocation
Office' is on Level Four which is the 'Department for 
the Regulation and Control of Magical Creatures'. 

For what it's worth.

Steve/bboyminn