[HPforGrownups] Re: Teaching Styles / Sorting Hat

[fair wynn]

No: HPFGUIDX 159758

> >AD:
> > >So, what you're saying is, Snape is too incompetent a teacher to
> > >understand the damage he's doing, or too lacking in empathy to
> > > care?
> > >
> > >I can live with that.
>
>wynnleaf:
> > What do you think an "incompentent" teacher is?
>
>AD:
>I think a pretty good example of an incompetent teacher would be one
>who refuses to change his teaching style, even when he has his nose
>rubbed in the fact that a particular student can be reached by other
>methods.

wynnleaf
Snape is not a pleasant person.  But in general, the idea that a teacher 
should be changing teaching styles to accomodate the changing needs of 
*every* student is simply not possible.  You're basically asking for a sort 
of kaliadascope of changing styles which is not really workable in the 
classroom.

I think that what you're really saying is that Snape shouldn't do things 
that upset Neville or other students.  Well, certainly some things Snape 
says and does are sarcastic and mean.  But that's not "teaching style," 
that's more Snape being mean.  "Mean" is not a teaching style (more 
expanding horizons I suppose?).  In Neville's case, he does not only do 
incompentent things in Snape's classroom, so it's not purely Snape being 
scary that causes Neville to mess up.  Snape's manner may exacerbate 
Neville's incompentence, but it doesn't cause it.

Snape's teaching style -- some lecture, putting instructions on the board, 
lots of hands on projects, assignments of essays, etc., has little to 
nothing to do with Neville's problems.

>An especially incompetent teacher would abuse his authority to take
>out his embarrassment on that student, instead.

wynnleaf
That doesn't make him an incompetent teacher.  That just means he's doing 
some unpleasant things.  You're equating being pleasant with teaching 
ability.  Also, you're judging a teacher's competence based on the 
performance of a very few students.  While *you* might do that, almost no 
schools would judge that way.

>wynnleaf:
> > Apparently, from OOTP info, Snape's students do very, very well
> > in potions as a whole, even if there are some like Neville that
> > don't do well.
>
>AD:
>We learn this little nugget from... who was it?  Oh yes, Severus
>Snape.  Couldn't have a less biased source than that, could we?

wynnleaf,
Well, fortunately you don't have to take his word for it.  In HBP, we see 12 
students in NEWT level potions.  Only Harry and Ron appear to have arrived 
unprepared with textbooks, so everyone else seemed to have expected to take 
Potions, even though they would have thought Snape was teaching.   That 
means the other 10 students made O's on their OWLs.   I think we can 
*probably* assume that not every single person who made an O on their OWL 
decided to take potions.   It's optional, after all.   The Lexicon thinks 
there's approximately 40 students in each year.  Perhaps a few more, but 
there seem to be about 10 kids per year in each house.  So if 10+ students 
scored O's on their potions OWL, out of 40+ students in that year -- well, 
AD, that's 25% or more making the highest level possible OWL in Potions.

I think that's probably an excellent record, wouldn't you?

Even Harry and Ron, who mess up lots of potions in class, copy off of 
Hermione, and have Hermione check their homework, still made an E, which is 
pretty good.  That means that two kids who get the brunt of a lot of Snape's 
sarcasm and who he supposedly treats unfairly (I don't agree with this, but 
just for argument's sake...) and who absolutely hate Snape and Potions 
class, are still able to achieve an E on the OWL.  They clearly learned the 
material, didn't they?

>AD:
>A competent teacher would change styles when dealing with that
>particular student.  Sadly, this appears to be beyond Snape's
>capabilities.  Fortunately for him, Hogwarts makes an effort to hire
>the handicapped.

wynnleaf
What a slur on the handicapped!  Do you regularly do this?

Back to the topic at hand.  I already said that a compentent teacher does 
not change styles constantly to accomodate every need of every student.  
Further, as I pointed out, Snape's teaching style really isn't Neville's 
problem, nor did Snape's unpleasant manner cause Neville's overall 
difficulties which follow him in many areas of Hogwarts, not just potions.  
And neither his teaching style, nor his demeanor in class, nor even his 
supposed unfairness stopped Harry and Ron from learning the material.

>
>wynnleaf:
> >  Do those teachers "lack empathy" because they won't change and
> > accomodate those of us who really respond better to a much more
> > down to earth style?
>
>AD:
>The use of threats, insults, and vendettas is a meaning of the phrase
>"down to earth" with which I was not previously familiar.  Thank you
>for enlarging my horizons.

wynnleaf
As I did not equate being "down to earth" with threats, insults, etc., nor, 
in fact, Snape's sarcastic manner, I would suggest in enlarging your 
horizons, you read posts more thoroughly.

>AD:
>Yes, I can see how much extra effort it would be for Snape to refrain
>from gratuitous insults outside of class, mustn't overwork our
>delicate little flower.

wynnleaf,
What??  Not sure what you mean.  Neville, of course, *is* a bit delicate in 
that way -- in that he is easily made nervous and uncertain.  Harry, Ron, 
and many others aren't the least delicate.

Actually, I've had a couple of teachers sort of like Snape.  Some people 
hated them.  Others of us really, really appreciated them.  Three of my kids 
have had a very similar teacher when they were 10 years old.  My daughter 
(now 16) refers to him as "ruthless."  Most of the kids actually liked him.  
Many parents wanted their kids in his class.  The kids who got in a lot of 
trouble tended not to like him much at all.  The school loves him.    
Snape-type teachers really aren't hated by everybody, regardless of how it 
looks in the HP books.  I've seen a lot of posters write that if there was a 
teacher like Snape in their school he'd be fired.  Maybe.  Maybe not.  
Schools do like good results and often aren't quite as upset at being 
extremely strict, or even being extremely unpleasant, as one might think.

wynnleaf

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