Draco and Dumbledore WAS: Re: Dumbledore Does Lie - Sort Of

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 159774

> Pippin:
<SNIP>
> If Draco would have accepted protection, fine. But he wouldn't
> take it from Snape, whom he had far more reason to think might
> help him, so why would he take it from Dumbledore? And if he
> refused, and Voldemort learned of it, Voldemort would kill
> him. Would be assassin or not, Draco had done nothing for
> which he deserved to be marked for death.  Even successful 
> mass murderers only got life in Azkaban.


Alla:
Let me repeat again - I am not talking about Azkaban and yes, if 
Draco refused he would have been in danger, therefore he should have 
been protected regardless of whether he would have accepted or 
not,IMO. But we simply disagree here.



> 
> Alla:
> > When I said a doubtful luxury as to Sirius **choosing** to be in 
> > that house, I meant that this was not a choice that Sirius 
really 
> > wanted to make,IMO. I think that was shown rather clearly in OOP.
> 
> Pippin:
> You mean if Sirius choses to do what Dumbledore thinks is right
> because he thinks that Dumbledore's judgement is better than his, 
> he's not acting of his own free will? How do you work that out?


Alla:

No, I said that this was not a choice that Sirius truly wanted to 
make, if that clarifies things, I'd say that he convinced himself to 
do so just as Remus convinced himself that he needs to go to 
werewolves even if he truly dislikes it.

Does it mean that I think that the choice was not truly free? Yes, I 
do, at least partially, but not by Imprerius or anything, but by 
great Albus DUmbledore puitting all his weight to convince them to 
do it. Sirius wanted to be closer to Harry, sure, but why exactly he 
can be closer to Harry only in Grimmauld place?

Pippin:
> In any case, Sirius said he came back to Britain because Harry 
needed 
> him. That meant he had  to give up  a life of  travel and 
adventure, 
> something parenting often requires us to do. Tough.

Alla:

Yes,shows again how responsible Sirius is about Harry and how much 
better Harry would have been off growing up with Sirius, IMO.

Sirius did not come back to spend all his days in Grimmauld place, 
he came back to fight, to do something useful for the Order. 
Dumbledore thought that something useful for the Order would be to 
keep Sirius confined to keep him alive. I do not remember anything 
in canon that Sirius thought so.

 
> 
> Alla:
> > The funny thing is that IMO Dumbledore sure demonstrated that he 
> > absolutely **can** make people's choices for them. Harry is the 
best 
> > example of course,
> 
> Pippin:
> The situations are not comparable. 
> 
> Draco's mother was not dead or in Azkaban. Dumbledore is not
> in loco parentis outside Hogwarts,  nor was she likely to 
surrender 
> her authority  as Sirius gave his to Dumbledore.  In any case,
> Draco on the tower has passed his 17th birthday and is no longer
> a child by WW standards.

Alla:

No, Sirius did not give him any authority about Harry, I really do 
not remember anything to that effect, unless you of course consider 
Hagrid taking Harry and Sirius agreeing to that to be giving that 
authority, then we have to agree to disagree.

And even more reason to take Draco to protection before Tower IMO.

Pippin: 
> Anyway, I  don't recall Harry ever asking Dumbledore to let him 
live
> elsewhere.  Unlike you, he seems to trust Dumbledore on that,
> wisely or not we shall see.

Alla:

That's funny. I remember Harry **jumping** at the possibility to 
live with Sirius, I remember Harry wanting to leave Dursleys as soon 
as possible **every summer** pretty much ( have to double check all 
the books, but several examples stood up), I remember Harry not 
wanting to return there when Summer starts.

I have to double check if he asks Dumbledore directly in OOP 
anything to that effect, but even if he did not, I think it shown 
sufficiently that he does not **want** to live there and I do not 
believe for one second especially after Dumbledore OOP end speech 
that Dumbledore does not know it.


Pippin:
> As for me, I have to say for Dumbledore what Gandalf said when
> he was challenged, "You may ask what is the use of my
> deeds when they are proved useless." 

Alla:

I actually never wanted to challenge Gandalf, ever. Maybe because he 
acted as a good and powerful being supposed to act IMO pretty much 
all the time.

As to asking Dumbledore about that, well let's see all his acts 
towards Sirius pretty much proved not only useless but wrong so far, 
aren't they?

He took Harry from innocent man, not from the traytor, he admitted 
that keeping Sirius in that house was a mistake.

I am convinced so far that blood protection is quite useless thing, 
I can be proven wrong of course in book 7, but so far I had not been 
shown anything to convince me to the contrary.

It would be interesting to see of course whether his trust in Snape 
turned out to be useless and wrong, to me for now it surely does.

Yeah, I think I already can ask Dumbledore about his deeds :)


 > 
> bboyminn:
> 
> I think Dumbledore understood that you can't help someone
> who doesn't want to be helped, so it was important for
> Draco to ask for help or at least consciously accept
> Dumbledore's offer of help.
<SNIP>
>> If Dumbledore had taken Draco into 'protective custody'
> Draco would have resented him for it. He would have 
> takens the same attitude he took with Snape, 'you just
> want all the glory for yourself'. 
<BIG SNIP>


Alla:

Precisely. I think this is exactly the reason why Dumbledore did it, 
he wanted  Draco to see the wrongness of his ways, to realise that 
he is on the wrong path, etc,etc, etc.

The only thing is I think it was actually very wrong thing of 
DUmbledore to do.

I mean, I am sure that this is what JKR intends to show - Dumbledore 
saving Draco's soul, etc.

It just looks to me that Dumbledore was saving Draco's soul at 
expense of many other souls under his protection.

The blood of Ron and Kathie, had they died would have been not only 
on Draco's hands but Dumbledore's as well, as far as I am concerned.

Yes, Ideally Draco should have been realised and asked for help - as 
we see on the Tower - he **still** does not. Yes, he would not have 
killed Dumbledore and probably Dumbledore gotten through to him, but 
Dumbledore still has to make a very long speech to get through to 
him, even when Draco realises in what predicament he landed himself 
in.

IMO Dumbledore should have done that earlier.


bboyminn:
<BIG SNIP>
>> Now many people think that FAR TOO MANY people have been
> accepting that Dumbledore knew best, but he is the oldest
> and wisest of them all, and flawed as he is, Dumbledore 
> has a history of knowing what is best within the bounds
> that it is humanly possible.
> 

Alla:

Actually, I would like **one** example in canon that shows that 
Dumbledore has a history of knowing what is best? Please exclude 
blood protection for now, because as I said above and many times 
before I have to see it to believe it ;), but anything besides it, 
because I really really do not remember him having that history, 
more like us hoping that he does.

JMO,

Alla