Draco and Dumbledore/ some Gandalf/Sirius

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 159876

> > Alla:
> > 
> > Erm.... my question was where in canon it shows that Dumbledore 
**has 
> > a history of knowing what is best**.
> > 
> > So, let's go through your examples - he defeated Grimdewald, 
indeed - 
> > if we will learn that he indeed did without hurting many people 
in 
> > process that is  indeed a good one.
> 
> Pippin:
> Not hurting many people? <SNIPS of multiple examples of Gandalf's 
ruthless behaviour, go UPTHREAD to read them>
> My point is not to tear down Gandalf, but to show that you
> aren't going to make much progress in fighting evil if you're
> unwilling to let anyone get hurt. 

Alla:

Erm... thank you for examples of Gandalf not so good behaviour ( as 
far as I am concerned of course), I certainly forgot some of them, 
but when I said upthread that I do not feel the need to question 
Gandalf's behaviour ever, I did not mean that he always behaved well.

I know, I know - I said that he behaved as good person would, but 
let me try to clarify again. I've been doing it a lot lately, 
unfortunately ;(

I suppose that the correct thing to say would be that I never felt a 
need to question Gandalf's behaviour, because I always felt that he 
had a **right** to behave that way, the authority if you may.

The answer why I felt that way is probably quite simple is that 
Gandalf is one of the divine beings, so even if he is hurting 
people, and I completely agree with you,even more so after you 
brought some examples I forgotten, he certainly did hurt many 
people, I always felt that this is still for the best.

But it seems to me that many people want to have it both ways - 
Dumbledore makes mistakes, because he is not infallible, but when 
asking whether he has authority to behave that way, he suddenly 
becomes God-like ( not saying that you did, just replying in general)

I suppose I should not have brought up Gandalf in the first place, 
because he is in my eyes unquestionably God like and Dumbledore is 
not.

 
> > Pippin:
> > 
> > > 
> > > Dumbledore may not have always acted as quickly as we would 
like,
> > > but he still acted before anybody else did. QED.
> > > 
> > 
> > Alla:
> > 
> > He did not act quickly enough, when he and only he was in the 
> > position to act IMO. That in my book translates in **not** 
having a 
> > history of knowing what is best, at all.
> 
> Pippin:
> We appear to have different definitions of 'best'. You haven't
> shown that anyone in the WW could have or has done half as much.

Alla:

Oh, yes, we certainly do have different definitions of what is best.

Pippin:
> Why is it he and only he was in a position to act? Because nobody
> else was alert to the danger and willing to take their head out of
> the sand and do something about it.

Alla:

Sorry, but No, not in my book of course. He and only he was in the 
position to act IMO because he took upon himself the positions of 
leadership and thus the acting in those multiple examples became 
primarily his responsibility ( excluding of course when he IMO 
assumed the responsibility that he should have stayed away from).

He is the Headmaster of Hogwarts and the Leader of Order of Phoenix, 
so if say Minerva Mcgonagall or anybody else was the Headmistress, I 
would certainly say that to help Hagrid was her responsibility. I 
would also say that whoever was in charge of Hogwarts had a duty to 
not let DE kidnap and torture Harry, etc. If say, I don't know Remus 
Lupin was the Leader of the Order, it would be his responsibility 
first and foremost to organise resistance.

With assuming positions of leadership comes responsibility, it 
became Dumbledore's when he agreed to lead and just as a_svirn does, 
I find it very telling that Dumbledore refused one position of 
leadership in which he could have been somehow accountable for what 
he did.


Pippin:
 Do you really think Harry
> would have been safer in Sirius's hands? I remind you that Sirius's
> first plan to protect Harry was the Secret Keeper Switch. His 
> second plan was murdering Pettigrew, which would have put
> Sirius in Azkaban even if he'd succeeded. Even if Dumbledore
> was wrong about the blood protection and wrong about Snape,
> which I don't believe for a minute, he still wasn't *that* stupid.

Alla:

Oh, I don't know if it turns out that Dumbledore's trust in Snape 
was wrong, and he trusted everything to a man, who murdered him, I'd 
say Dumbledore stupidity would be pretty big IMO.

But whom do you compare Harry safety with Sirius to? If it is to 
Dumbledore's then my answer would be probably not, but Dumbledore 
did **not** raise Harry himself, didn't he? So, I really cannot make 
that comparison, but if you are asking whether Harry would have been 
safer with Sirius than with Dursleys?

I don't know, but considering all that I saw, I certainly think that 
Sirius should have had that chance to try and Dumbledore contributed 
as far as I am concerned to taking this chance away from him.

And again, if we are comparing Harry growing up with Sirius and 
Harry growing up with Dursleys, I do not see many signs that Harry 
would have been so much unsafer with him, and certainly more loved.

As to stupidity of Sirius' plans, if Peter would not have turned a 
traitor, seemed like rather good plan to me. What ifs, what ifs. :)

And certainly while I absolutely get that Harry saving Peter will 
play out at the end with Peter saving him somehow or something like 
that, I do think that murdering Peter could have also resulted in 
postponing Voldemort's resurrection, etc.

So, not do not think it was that stupid, at all.

But wait, we do have one instance in canon where we can certainly 
compare Dumbledore and Sirius' wisdon in regards to Harry, since 
they act in the same situation and  Sirius turns out to know better 
what is best for Harry. Yeah, if you ask me Sirius if given a chance 
had quite a good potential of good guardian. He has plenty of flaws 
and I certainly think that he should not have gone after Peter in 
the beginning, but yeah, altogether I would choose Sirius hands down.

Oh, just realised something else - there is another instance where 
Sirius may have turned out wiser than Dumbledore. I realise that you 
do not believe it for a minute, but since it is not disproven yet, I 
will keep my hopes for now.

"Dumbledore thinks that you are reformed but I know better"" ( 
paraphrase) - hmmmmm, so I will hold off deciding that Dumbledore is 
not as stupid as Sirius. Sirius did lots of stupid things, as far as 
I am concerned, but as Dumbledore himself says because of his wisdom 
his mistakes are of much greater magnitude as well. ( paraphrase).

JMO,

alla