Draco and Dumbledore/ Molly and Harry-Treated like Family

[justcarol67]

No: HPFGUIDX 160048

> Quick_Silver wrote:
> I agree with what you're saying about whose lives are in danger and 
> how Snape and Dumbledore are planning on controlling Draco but at the 
> same time it's a
reckless strategy. I mean Snape only applies the 
> pressure on Draco after the Katie incident and that doesn't prevent 
> Draco's poison from finding a victim either. 

Carol responds:
As I said upthread, Draco put the mead plot in motion at Christmas
time, before Snape talked to him. It's only coincidence that Ron drank
it in March (on his birthday). It was meant to be a Christmas present.
It was too late then for Draco to get the mead back, but he didn't try
any more tricks of that sort, so Snape's warning had the intended
effect. (Of course, the argument in the forest occurs just after the
mead incident and has something to do with it. What, exactly, it's
impossible to do more than guess.)

Carol earlier:
> > Sorry. That doesn't answer my question. Snape stopped Draco from 
> using amateurish methods like the mead and the necklace. Dumbledore
had already increased the protections on the castle (locked gates,
searching the students, eliminating owl mail. I repeat, what else
could either Snape or Dumbledore have done?
> 
> Quick_Silver:
> I thought about this question for a while and I think I have an 
> answer
they should have used Harry. Of course there are a thousand 
> and one reasons why they shouldn't have used Harry but I think that 
> including him could be been beneficial. He's Draco age (meaning they 
> have roughly the same skill levels), he doesn't seem to have an age 
> bias (since Harry has been some pretty wild things for his age),
he's motivated, he can be creative (i.e. House-elf surveillance
even
Snape can only be so many places at once), and I don't think that
Draco would expect Harry to actually be in on any actual
counter-measures against him.  <snip>

Carol responds:
I think using Harry is the last thing they wanted to do. They were
trying to prevent him from getting involved because they were trying
to protect him as well as Draco, which is why Dumbledore wouldn't
listen to him (I wish he had just said, "Thank you, Harry, but I
already know all this") and why Snape kept him in detention every
Saturday after the Sectumsempra incident. What, exactly, could Harry
have done? We see what happens when he actually encounters Draco--an
attempted Crucio from the one and a Sectumsempra from the other.

So back to square one. What else could DD and Snape have done without
involving Harry (or endangering Snape from the UV)?
>
> 
> Quick_Silver:
> Sorry but this touched on some interesting points about the plot 
> against Dumbledore. I think that you're correct in saying that after 
> Snape reined in Draco no students were really in danger (although 
> Snape spoke to Draco before Christmas and Ron wasn't poisoned until 
> March). 

Carol responds:
See above. The mead plot was already in place before the talk with Snape.

Quick_Silver:
However I think that the DA's involvement was important 
> perhaps even vital to controlling the Death Eaters because I think 
> Snape and Dumbledore did to a certain extent underestimate Draco and 
> didn't know what to expect from Draco (or that it would come from the 
> Room of Requirement). 

Carol responds:
How so? What difference did their presence make, aside from having
someone take Flitwick to the hospital wing after Snape stupefied him
(note that he didn't kill him, as ESE!Snape would have done) and
getting Neville slightly injured? If not for the Felix Felicis, the DA
kids would have been in terrible danger.
> 
Quick_Silver:
> I'm going to go off on a tangent here but I wonder if it's possible 
> to really separate Harry from the plot (I realize that Harry as the 
> narrator has to involved from plot reasons but those aside
).

Carol responds:
Sorry to correct you, but Harry is not the narrator. The book has a
third-person limited omniscient narrator who usually but not always
sees from Harry's point of view and consequently is not always
reliable. See my numerous posts on this topic. (If Harry were the
narrator, he'd be writing in the first-person, and we'd know that he
survived the conflict with Voldemort to tell the tale.)

Qiock_Silver:

 See 
> mainly its viewed as a Snape-Draco-Dumbledore thing with Harry 
> observing (like on the Tower) but on my re-read of HBP I noticed
that Harry was in many ways an "active observer" of the plot,
plotting, and stratagems. By "active observer" I mean that the
plotting effect's Harry, the best example being when Ron is poisoned
which disrupts Harry's attempt to get Slughorn drunk (most people tend
to overlook that the Felix Felicis set up for a second go at the same 
> idea) and that Harry effects the plotting, the best example of this 
> being the bathroom duel which probably had an effect of Draco's 
> psyche. Add to that Harry secretly trailing Draco, getting reports
on the Room of Requirements from house-elves, hearing things from 
> Moaning Myrtle, Harry being on the scene first of two attacks, and 
> observing Draco in general and you realize that Harry was involved.

Carol responds:
Of course. This is Harry's book and we have to see it from his pov. We
also have to see how his little stratagems affect the events. But we
also know that his efforts didn't really make a difference and
probably could not have made a difference. And we also see his
conflict with Snape reaching a peak of mutual hatred and
misunderstanding, building to a climax and resolution/reversal in Book
7 when Harry learns what Snape has really been doing and Snape
realizes that Harry is not as incompetent as he seems to fear. (My
reading, of course. ESE! and OFH!Snapers will anticipate a different
outcome.) What Harry's involvement does is to help *the reader* learn
part of what's going on. We can see to some degree where he's right
and where he's wrong since we have the dubious advantage of reading
that wonderfully ambiguous chapter, "Spinner's End," which removes the
Harrycentric bias but still forces us to see Snape from the outside in
his loyal DE role. But we're also left up in the air about some things
(e.g., how was Draco communicating with the DEs? Surely not through
the coins he gave Rosmerta) even after Dumbledore interrogates Draco
on the tower. (That, of course, is primarily for Harry's benefit as DD
surely knows at that point that he's going to die--wandless, poisoned,
and waiting for the DEs and Snape, whom DD probably intends to order
to fulfill his vow so he can save Draco and get the DEs off the tower,
away from Harry, and out of Hogwarts. However, I think that DD's
primary motivation in freezing Harry is not to force him to witness
the confrontation but to keep him from rushing out to fight the DEs
and getting killed.)
> 
Quick_Silver:
> What's different from previous books is that whereas before Harry was 
> usually directly involved in the plot and Dumbledore, Snape, and (to 
> a lesser extent) Draco were on the outside nudging and interfering 
> with plots around Harry that concept is inverted (ahh
a nice math 
> term) in HBP. In HBP Draco, Snape, and Dumbledore are head-deep in a 
> plot and it's Harry on the outside nudging and interfering with the 
> plot.
> 
> Quick_Silver (who was really impressed with HBP Harry after re-
> reading it)
>
Carol responds:
Interesting perspective. But Harry doesn't really influence the
events. He's just trying to find out what's going on--which DD doesn't
want him to know because it's crucial to keep Harry alive and focused
on the Horcruxes. Harry ought to have believed Dumbledore when DD said
that he knew more about it than Harry did. And unless JKR has been
deluding us about DD's wisdom, we should find out in Book 7 what
Dumbledore (and Snape) knew that Harry didn't. If it weren't for that
limited omniscient narrator, we'd know it already, but what would be
the fun in that?

Carol, still asking what else Dumbledore and Snape could have done to
prevent the events on the tower without triggering the UV (short of DD
staying in Hogwarts rather than flying to the tower, which IMO can
only mean that DD *wanted* to confront Draco and knew that Snape would
have to kill him to keep Draco from doing it)