Draco and Dumbledore LONG, beware

[justcarol67]

No: HPFGUIDX 160202

Alla wrote:
> 
> I think that if he indeed wanted to try Sectusemptra **that** badly 
> and he certainly wishes to try it out ( do not know, maybe his 
> subconscious sort of stops him temporarily or something), he would 
> have tried it out **right away** when he sees Malfoy.
> 
> What do we see instead?
<snip quote>
> 
> So, Harry defends himself with two hexes, which are really quite 
> harmless, no?
> 
> And he only uses sectusemptra when he is slipping and wet and on the 
> floor.
> 
> I do not know, Harry indeed seemed awfully eager to try it out when 
> he was thinking about it, but when it came to action, he does not do 
> it except the last attempt to defend himself against one of the 
> three most awful curses of WW.
> 
Carol responds:

According to canon, the only thing that held him back was Hermione.
Note that he tries out all of the HBP's other spells without knowing
what they do, for example Levicorpus on Ron and the tongue-tying spell
(Langlock) on Filch. He also tried out the toenail-growing spell on
Crabbe, but he may have known from the name (not given in the book)
what that one did. I doubt very much that he would have hesitated to
try out Sectumsempra on McLaggen if the opportunity arose.
>
> Alla:
<snip>
> It is certainly possible that he would have tried it, all that I am 
> disagreeing with that it would have absolutely happened and that is 
> why I am disagreeing that Severus Snape just had to be there.
> 
>  
Carol responds:
Who else could have saved Draco or the hypothetical guinea pig for the
spell? Sectumsempra is Snape's own invention. Who but Snape would know
the countercurse? As for someone else being able to save Katie, why
did McGonagall send Filch to Snape rather than removing the curse and
attempting to save Katie herself? Why didn't she send it to Dumbledore
or Madam Pomfrey? And since Katie was sent to the hospital wing, why
didn't Madam Pomfrey save Katie herself rather than sending for Snape?
IMO, it's because he's the only one in Hogwarts who could have saved
her, just as he's the only one who could have saved Draco (or DD at
the beginning of the book). As Dumbledore says, Snape knows much more
about the Dark Arts than Madam Pomfrey, which is one reason why DD
went to him for the ring Horcrux curse. For Snape, knowledge of the
Dark Arts goes hand in hand with healing.

Alla:
> 
> Well, if we are still talking about Snape of that time period, then 
> I just have to voice my disagreement that Voldy would have 
> necessarily moved to new plan. ( Would he have find new DE against 
> whom he wants revenge right away?)

Carol:
Now that voldemort knows a way to get into Hogwarts, he's not going to
let the supposed death of Draco (and the real death of Snape from the
UV) stop him. There's another kid with a DE father and a presumed
grudge against Dumbledore for his father's arrest, and I don't mean
Crabbe or Goyle. Theo Nott has been waiting on the sidelines all this
time. If Draco failed, Theo was right there to take over (whether he
wants to become a DE or not, he would probably have had no choice).
Note that DD had Snape "making investigations into his house." I'm
betting that Draco wasn't the only student being watched (and that
Snape knew all about the polyjuiced "girls").
> 
> Alla:
> 
> That is interesting. You [Magpie} are saying that strength of the
spell {Sectumsempra] would have been different or because they would
not have been fighting, the spell would have had totally diffefent
effect? Just curious.

Carol responds:

I think that *is* what Magpie is saying, and certainly Harry made
matters worse by waving his wand around wildly. But Magpie is assuming
that the nonverbal hex that Severus used on James to cut his cheek was
a controlled version of Sectumsempra. I don't think that's necessarily
the case. "Sectum sempra" means "cut always" or "cut forever," and
there's no evidence that James was in danger of bleeding to death (as
a hemophiliac can do from a small cut like the slash on James's face),
and certainly Severus doesn't perform the complex, songlike
countercurse to save him. I think the cut was from a preliminary
version of the spell (or an existing spell that Severus later
modified) such as "Sectum" ("cut") without the "sempra" always. Just
presenting an alternate view. I think that McLaggen would have been
nearly as badly off as Draco if Harry had hit him with that spell,
especially if Harry moved the wand with anything slashing movement.
And only Snape would have been able to heal McLaggen. (BTW, this topic
is going to come up in my chapter discussion in a few weeks, so I hope
we don't exhaust all our ideas on the subject now.)



> Alla:
> 
> Snape saved Dumbledore's life during HBP? Am I indeed missing 
> something really major here? I seem to remember him dead from 
> Snape's hand at the end. Are you talking about the ring? Because if 
> you do, then again I must disagree that this is indeed happened with 
> absolute certainty, because for all I know Snape only slowed down 
> the curse and did it on purpose to finish Dumbledore off at the 
> first appropriate situation. Yes, I know that Dumbledore thought 
> that Snape saved him, but dare I say that I do not necessarily think 
> that Dumbledore is right in Snape related matters?


Carol responds:
You are, of course, mixing two incidents. At the time that Snape
healed Dumbledore, there was no Unbreakable Vow. Snape couldn't save
Dumbledore's hand, but he certainly healed him to the extent that he
didn't need to go to St. Mungo's and could run the school. Granted, he
wouldn't have been up to another battle with Voldemort, but he was
still a very powerful wizard. What reason would Snape have for wanting
to finish off Dumbledore? he's been alone with him hundreds of times,
and he could easily have let him die from the ring curse if that were
his goal. (Don't let hindsight--events on the tower--color your
interpretation of earlier events. We still don't know why he killed
Dumbledore, but if it were an act of vengeance or of loyalty to
Voldemort, surely he wouldn't have saved DD from the ring curse. And
simple Slytherin self-preservation, which I think is your view of
events on the tower, is irrelevant to saving Dubledore from the ring
Horcrux. Snape's own life is not yet in danger. That leaves one motive
that I can see--loyalty to Dumbledore. At any rate, he is certainly
the only one with the skill to heal the curse, which is again why DD
chooses him and not Madam Pomfrey to apply "timely action." (Too bad
DD never told us the whole "thrilling tale"!)

> Alla:
> 
> And who would save those schoolchildren from Snape if he reveals his 
> true colours ( as I see them of course) in the unexpected moment?

Carol:
That has already happened. He could have killed Luna and Hermione
instead of telling them to take Flitwick to the hospital wing (and,
no, I don't think the Felix Felicis could control Snape's words or
actions). And he rescued Harry from a Crucio and deflected his curses
instead of killing him on the spot. (If it were really Voldemort's
orders that motivated him, he would have let them continue to Crucio
Harry. Instead, he ordered them off the grounds.)
> 
Alla: 
> No, I remember it very well, I just think that Dumbledore has a duty 
> to not put them in the line of enemy fire,whenever possible.

Carol responds:
Whom did he put in the line of fire? He had the Order in the castle
when he left for the cave. It was Harry who put his friends in the
line of fire. Fortunately, they each had their little drop of Felix
Felicis (which didn't prevent Neville from being injured).


> Alla:
> 
> I have to say that  I have to add to that list the fact that second 
> attempt was allowed to happen at all.
> 
> As far as I am concerned Dumbledore should have acted *after* 
> poisoned necklace happened and **fast**, which he did not IMO, at 
> least definitely not sufficiently.

Carol:
And you think he didn't? He ordered Snape to talk to Draco (which he
finally managed after Draco had evaded him for two months), he may
have been making investigations we don't know about using his spy
network, (presumably watching the Three Broomsticks because that's
where the incident occurred). I've already listed the heightened
security measures and the consequences of confronting Draco and
allowing the UV to kill Snape (which would make DD an accessory to
murder). 

As Julie said, DD did his best to protect everyone involved, not only
Draco and Snape but Harry and the whole student body.

If you can explain what he could have done without triggering the UV
and killing a trusted teacheer (you don't trust him, but DD does and
he relies heavily on him throughout HBP), I'd be grateful. Personally,
I don't think there was anything else to be done.

Carol, noting that directly or indirectly, Snape saves four people in
HBP, one of them (Draco) twice