[HPforGrownups] Re: witches of the world (was: Lavender vs Hermione)

[Magpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 160430

> Tesha:
> She read a book that was in the "Banned Area" She took some material
> from a teacher's private stock. She made and made available a spiked
> treat. She used her skills and knowlege to help her friend find out
> some information that might have helped save others. There was no
> violence, there was no physical harm (except to herself) - and she is
> just a child - I think that's pretty remarkable.

Magpie:
So you're intentionally glossing over everything questionable? I guess I 
don't even really get why one would want to do that. Is it really strange my 
thinking it could be violating to be drugged and then have your body taken 
by another person to use to spy on your friends?  To me it just obviously 
begs the question: is it okay if everyone does this? Who are the people who 
get to do it to others?  What kind of situations is this okay in?  What do 
you have to do to leave yourself open for this? This is all outside of just 
enjoying the caper within the story, of course. But I don't see why you 
can't do both.

Tesha:>
>
> I fail to see how you come to these conclusion... unless you simply
> despise her???

Magpie:
Err..what on earth conclusion did I come to that you'd think I despised the 
character?   I don't despise her. (I occasionally criticize characters I 
really like.) I just honestly described what she did.  Instead of saying, 
"she used her skills and knowledge to help her friend find out some 
information that might save others" I said she slipped two innocent kids a 
mickey so that her friends could transform into their bodies for a while 
hoping to get another kid to say something to them they could use against 
him because they thought he was guilty.

That would be true even if I thought what she did was a great blow for 
justice. I think Hermione would be angry at this if it were done to her and 
her friends, and still think so.  Hermione has a pattern of doing some 
really extreme things when she decides what ought to happen, and of not 
always respecting the rights or desires of others. If we're talking about 
the character, I don't think this is something that should just be dismissed 
with a generic compliment about her good intentions. If we were talking 
about a real girl I'd think there was even less reason to do that--the 
girl's already convinced she knows best. She doesn't need encouragement.

>
>> Magpie:
>> She is a bit better than the murderous sociopath advocating genocide.

Tesha:>
> (This is rather of like hearing my husband's ex list off all the
> horrible things he's ever done in his life to prove he's worthy of her
> distain - when in fact he's the sweetest man I've ever met - we're
> going to just have to agree to disagree)

Magpie:
Wow. I think I'm debating at a wacky ethical situation in a work of fiction, 
but first the fictional character in question is your eldest daughter I 
can't appreciate and now when I make the imo obvious remark about the irony 
of defending a character's morals with the equivalent of "she's better than 
Hitler" I'm the hateful ex attacking your sweetest guy in the world husband. 
That's a bit uncomfortable. Hermione's not your daughter or your husband and 
I'm not the ex. If it always came down to whether we like the characters or 
not we'd never be able to discuss the books together. I tried to lay out the 
way I see the situation in terms of what's right and wrong. If I was reading 
the book to a kid I think I'd want to talk about this kind of thing. One 
thing I definitely wouldn't want the kid to come away with is the idea that 
because Hermione is a "good" person whatever she does must naturally be 
good.

wynnleaf,
How many of us drugged our classmates, started intentional explosions that 
injured our friends, stole restricted supplies from teachers, permenantly 
disfigured others, or set up a very nasty teacher to get
seriously injured or killed?  Sorry, I don't buy Hermione's behavior as 
typical.

Magpie:
True, and even if it were typical, that wouldn't mean it was wrong to point 
out where it's wrong, imo.  There's plenty of things I've done in my life 
that were wrong, but I don't think that makes it hypocritical to identify it 
as wrong if someone else does it--as long as I'm saying it was wrong when I 
did it as well.

-m