Views of Hermione LONGish

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 160513

> Alla wrote:
> <snip>
> > What I **am** saying though that this is investigation to catch 
the
> > murderer of muggle borns ( real and/or potential one) and as 
such, I
> > fully excuse any rule breaking resulting from it. <snip>
> 
> > Sorry, but the fact that those guys **are** DE children does 
matter
> to me in deciding whether they deserved what happened to them. IMO 
of
> > course.
> 
> Carol responds;
> But the fact that Crabbe and Goyle are DEs' children has nothing to 
do
> with their being given sleeping potion, locked in a closet, having
> their shoes removed and their identities borrowed. Nor is it their
> fault (or Draco's) that their fathers are DEs. I can see you 
approving
> of the hexes on the Hogwarts Express because Draco and his cronies
> initiated it, but in this case Crabbe and Goyle are guilty of 
nothing
> more than being Draco's, erm, body guards and a pair of gluttons. I
> don't see how it can be right to punish them for being who they are
> any more than it was right for James to torment Severus in the
> Pensieve scene when he's done nothing except be himself, which he
> can't help being.
> 
> It seems to me that you're not only holding the Gryffindor to a
> different standard of behavior than the Slytherins, you seem to be
> saying that the end justifies the means. If that's true for HRH,
> surely it's true for Dumbledore as well (and for Snape, if he's 
DDM)?
> Frankly, I don't see much difference between Harry and Ron
> eavesdropping (spying) on Draco and young Severus eavesdropping on 
the
> Marauders. In both cases, a kid (or kids) is trying to discover
> information that will get another kid (or kids) in trouble. Both
> believe the other is doing something seriously wrong. <SNIP>

Alla:

Uh, let me try to clarify - it is all the matter of degree I suppose 
to me.

How to put it - Crabb and Goyle do not deserve to be **killed** or 
even severely bodily harmed for being DE children and actually I 
think I was not clear, I do not think that they deserve to be 
anything for being **just** DE children, it is just that the fact 
that they hang out with Draco always seemed to me to be clear 
implication that they share his way of thinking ( the purebloods are 
better ideology)

So, for that, yes, I am willing to close my eyes that they had been 
polyjuiced, because IMO no harm was done. Let me say it again - had 
they been severely harmed, I would have viewed it differently.

If you are asking me whether I am holding them to a bit different 
standard for being friends with Malfoy, well, **yes**, I do.

But IMO not much different, because as I said, if they had been 
wounded or killed, I would have been angry.

Oh, and yes indeed I do see not much difference between Snape's 
spying on Marauders and what Trio did, that is if I look at the 
actions itself ( Again, I do not think I am guilty of much double 
standards here)

My main contention with the Prank had always been that we do not know 
everything about Snape and Marauders relationship.

Like for example, if Snape discovered that Lupin is a werewolf and 
tried to get him in trouble afterwards, you bet I will view the 
situation very differently than Trio trying to catch Slytherin heir.

Bottom line - I know of Trio's intentions, I understand and agree 
with them, I do not know of Snape's, but actions are sure the same.

And end justifies the means? Again, matter of degree. If Dumbledore 
had let Harry to stay with Dursleys for one hour - sure, I am willing 
to close my eyes on that for greater good, but no, sorry fifteen 
years of abuse does not equal one hour of being unconscious in my 
book.

Same thing with Snape.


 
> 
> > Alla:
<SNIP>
> > Okay, could you give me an example, where Hermione harmed 
somebody 
> > who did not deserve it, somebody who was not suspected of DE or 
DE 
> > related, murderous activities? 
> 
> Carol responds:
> 
> Ron, maybe? She attacked him with her charmed birds because she was
> hurt and jealous of his snogging with Lavender. Granted, he was not 
on
> his best behavior (he can be unkind, as Luna says, and hypocritical,
> as Ginny says), but surely he didn't deserve to be attacked by a 
flock
> of birds, which could have pecked out his eyes or scarred him for 
life.

Alla:

Yes, I agree actually.

 
> Alla:
> > If you argue that Hermione is a bit too ruthless in making 
herself a 
> > judge, in deciding that she knows best, always, I somewhat agree,
> not all the way, but agree.
> 
> Carol: 
> I don't know about anyone else, but that's pretty much the way I see
> her. <SNIP>

Alla:

Cool :)


> > Alla:
> > 
> 
> > Sure, they would not be, but they were suspected of helping out 
> the 
> > murderer of muggleborns and the answer I would have for them - 
> next 
> > time your children should better stay away from Draco Malfoy.
> 
> Magpie:
> Isn't this essentially what Percy counsels Ron to think about in 
> OotP in his letter--don't hang out with Harry because he's trouble? 
> (Choosing friends in the books is often judged based on the default 
> idea that the Trio is the correct choice, but that's imo, equally 
> impractical as a guide.  <SNIP>

Alla:

Is it? I thought that Harry refusing Draco offer of friendship in 
PS/SS  and choosing Ron as the good kind was one of the main themes 
in the books.

But no, I do not think it is the same, not because Harry is Harry, 
but because of the saying " tell me who your friend is and I will 
tell you who you are"

I am not saying that Crabb and Goyle should abandon Malfoy, but they 
better be abandoning his way of thinking if it makes sense



Magpie:
<SNIP>
There's lot of spying that goes on at Hogwarts--Draco on 
> the Trio, Snape on the Marauders, Harry on Malfoy, Rita on Hagrid 
> and the Trio.  It's often received differently depending not so 
much 
> on guilt but on who's being spied on.

Alla:

I completely disagree. I believe it is received differently precisely 
because of the guilt.

So Malfoy turned out to be innocent of being Slytherin heir, but did 
he turned out to be innocent of let's kill Muggleborns? Not IMO.

As I said above, I do not think we know everything of Snape v 
Marauders, but as action what he did is pretty similar to what Trio 
did IMO all that differs are intentions, maybe.

 
Magpie:
> But to not think it matters at all because these are Slytherins or 
> friends of Malfoy or enemies or sons of DEs just seems to split the 
> world into two classes of people--so if you hang around with that 
> kid you have to expect fewer rights. 

Alla:

No, if you hang out with that kid, you are to be expected of others 
suspecting that you have same views as that kid, IMO and Crabb and 
Goyle gave me little reason to think otherwise.

And sorry, but yes, those who do share DE ideology and act upon it, 
are people of different class in Potterverse to me than those who do 
not.

I keep saying it, but I will say it again. Sure, I consider Trio to 
be better "people" than Malfoy and his goons, but this is a pretty 
**low** threshold to overcome.

Trio have plenty flaws, good and not good, but all they have to do in 
my book to be better people than Malfoy and Co is not to wish death 
upon Muggle and muggleborns.

But I suppose maybe I am wrong about Crabb and Goyle, maybe they do 
not share Draco's views, but the fact that JKR barely let them open 
their mouth and talk, make me suspect that they worship Draco. IMO of 
course.

Alla