CHAPDISC: HBP 23, Horcruxes

[snow15145]

No: HPFGUIDX 160549



Snow:

You and I have become quite wordy, Carol, so I am going to attempt to 
minimize any responses that seem to be answered elsewhere. If there 
is anything I miss, please bring it up again. 

Carol earlier: 
> 
> The diary, even without Ginny's soul, is different from the other
Horcruxes because it contains at least one *memory* of Tom Riddle in
addition to the soul bit.
> 
> Snow:
> 
> How, oh yeah because it had a possible living soul within its 
binding?

Carol again:

Actually, no. Please don't resort to sarcasm, okay? It's different
because it's designed to be interactive, not merely to encase a soul
bit to keep the main soul earthbound. The other Horcruxes we've seen
(except for Nagini, if she is one) are hidden away, protected by
curses (the ring) or potions and Inferi and an anti-opening spell (the
locket, which may also have a curse on it to attack anyone who dares
to open it and release the soul bit).

Snow:

Sorry if you were offended by that reply it was not meant to be 
offensive :) Apologies! 

The subject was that the Diary is different from all the other 
Horcruxes and I quite agree that it is because it has the capability 
to obtain a soul to make a living Horcrux out of memory Tom. 

Carol:

Possibly you're misunderstanding me. Of course he possessed Nagini,
not Harry, in the MoM scene and Harry was only seeing through her eyes
because LV was possessing Nagini, as Snape says. But he can possess
her without causing her pain. When he possesses Harry, he causes Harry
such agony that he wants to die and join Sirius Black, at which point,
Voldemort suffers agony, too, because of the blood protection. But if
Harry contained a soul bit, as Nagini apparently does, surely LV could
possess him *physically* without agony to either of them because the
soul bit would already, in essence, possess him mentally or, erm,
spiritually.

Snow again:

I don't think it was the blood protection that actually protected 
Harry from the invasion by Voldemort but more so his ability to love 
so much that he was willing to die, which is something worse than 
appalling to Voldemort. 

Also if it were the blood alone carrying Lily's sacrifice that forced 
Voldemort's expulsion from Harry, then I don't think Voldemort would 
carry the immunity he believed himself to have since he used that 
particular ingredient in his graveyard potion that Dumbledore 
concluded was a hurdle that Voldemort overcame. 

  
Carol again:

So we agree that Voldemort didn't count James's death as a murder. But
do you agree that Voldemort didn't want to split his soul using
Lily's death, which is why he told her to step aside? 

Snow:

Absolutely and without a doubt! Voldemort didn't want to use Lily's 
murder (But this is step one of how-to-make-a-Horcrux). Voldemort 
didn't have a choice but to murder Lily and didn't take much time to 
consider the repercussion of such an action. Lily was unarmed and not 
fighting back, I would view this as the coldest of murders. 

Voldemort was so greedy to get his hands on Harry that he 
underestimated Lily's sacrifice or didn't care because he wasn't 
about to say the spell that would use that murder as a Horcrux. What 
he failed to think of is that Lily would have not only shielded Harry 
with her body but also a Charm, after all her wand was well suited.
 
Lily wouldn't have taken any chances with her son and, as I surmise, 
placed the simplest spell that works like the old kids saying " I'm 
rubber, you're glue, whatever you say, bounces off of me and sticks 
to you". Simple but effective, the son-of-a-gun killed himself by 
means of an AK to his own body.  

Carol:

(I won't even get into how he could be sure that the next murder 
would result in
splitting off 1/7 of his soul!) Also, I'm not sure how this part of
the argument strengthens the Harry!Unofficial Horcrux argument. It
does, however, explain why LV tol Lily to step aside. Her death wasn't
significant to use for making a Horcrux with, as he intended to do
with Harry's.

Snow:

The 1/7th is simply a figurative way to say a portion of Voldemort's 
soul that was split six times with the remaining seventh portion, the 
core soul, residing with its master. I doubt that any of us could 
rationalize exactly seven equal portions of soul but for sake of 
argument it's easiest to refer to each soul bit as one seventh. 

Voldemort told Lily to step aside realizing that if he were to kill 
her he would be splitting his soul and as you say she wasn't 
significant enough for his plans
she did however force his hand to do 
exactly as he did. He didn't intend on having to do this but the 
results of his actions were the same. 

> Snow:
> 
> If someone commits a hennas crime there soul may surely be split 
but 
> without a spell and/or destination for that split to adhere to, it 
> may just dissolve without a soul to keep it alive but only in the 
> event that such an occurrence coincided almost simultaneously with 
> there own death, which of course in this particular case it did. 

Carol:
I don't think so. I think the soul is just damaged but remains with
the murderer. The soul fragment created by the murderer is
detachachable if the murderer wants to encase it in a Horcrux, but
ordinarily, he doesn't do so. I have some hope that a split soul can
heal if the murderer repents (Snape!), but I think that in LV's case,
the soul fragments from his various murders remained detachable until
and unless he encased them in a Horcrux. 

Snow:

I don't think that what I am saying disputes your contention. If you 
kill, the soul is split, the split remains within that physical plane 
or body until it is expelled either by intention with a spell or when 
the body is destroyed in the manner Voldemort's was. 

> Carol:
> 
> Did it? Where is your evidence that it didn't stay with the core 
soul? 
> 
> Snow:
> 
> Evidence? I though we were speculating but I'll go with it5533; To 
> separate does mean to split or am I wrong again? If the soul split 
> and the core goes with Voldemort where does the fragment caused by 
> Lily's death go?

Carol:

No, "split" and "separate" are not exact synomnyms. Have you ever had
a pair of pants split along the seams but not separate into two
pieces? I think the pieces that were split, ready to be detached but
not yet removed, stayed with the damaged main soul. (Doesn't
Dumbledore use that very word, "damaged," to describe LV's soul?) But
suppose you're right and the soul bit was detached. Why would it go
into Harry rather than dissolving or going beyond the Veil, which I
take to be the ultimate destination of all souls.

Snow:

The aim of the AK was clearly directed at Harry; Lily was clearly 
murdered moments prior to the AK attempt; Voldemort clearly lost his 
body with this particular gesture; Harry clearly obtained abilities 
that belong to Voldemort during this action. This all suggests, to 
me, that Harry did receive a Horcrux portion of soul that night but 
not in the encasement manner that coincides with the proper making of 
a Horcrux. 

Carol:

And what about all those other murders, which also fragmented 
Voldie's soul but weren't used in Horcruxes? If all of those floated 
away or went into Harry, Voldie
would have something like 1/100 of a soul left! 

Snow:

Voldemort was very precise with whom he murdered but not all killings 
are murders. If the murder occurred like that of James who was armed 
and fighting back then it was a killing but not of the requirement to 
rip the soul. 

Carol:

Are you saying that Harry doesn't have to be killed because the
Horcrux spell wasn't performed and his soul bit isn't doing the job of
holding the main soul to earth? That's the only point I can see in
having him as a non-Horcrux soul bit container. 

Snow:

Correct!

Carol:

But I think that if Harry thought his scar contained a soul bit, he'd 
see himself as a Horcrux and believe that he has to be sacrificed, 
which takes us back
to the unsolvable dilemma of how to destroy himself, the last Horcrux,
and kill Voldemort, too. 

Snow:

Which is why Dumbledore purposely did not make that particular 
connection evident. Harry has to view this portion of Voldemort 
outside the purposely-made Horcrux limitation. The soul bit that I 
propose is in Harry was not encased within him so there should be the 
possibility to expel it or use it against Voldemort without harm to 
Harry. 

> Snow:
> 
> It depends on how you look at the murders. If you count all 
> Voldemort's appointed murders by his deatheaters as his killing 
them 
> then we will come to a draw on the subject. Myrtle was not killed 
by 
> Voldemort anymore than Cedric was. 

Carol:
I disagree. Tom killed Myrtle using the Basilisk as his weapon. If you
sic your pit bull on someone, ordering the dog to kill the person, and
the person dies, aren't you guilty of murder? 

Snow:

With this proposal, wouldn't each death appointed to a deatheater 
fall back on Voldemort as the killer? Wouldn't the deatheater merely 
become the weapon?

Carol:

I agree that Cedric's death doesn't count as a murder, but he's not on
my list. Nor am I counting murders committed by Death Eaters. Look at
the murders LV has committed personally just since he got his
rudimentary body in GoF: Bertha Jorkins, Frank Bryce, and Madam Bones.
Do you really think that he limited his murders in his glory days to
the ones I listed or let this DEs do all the killing?

Snow:

Cedric's death would be equal to that of Myrtle's since they were 
both appointed killings. Tom appointed the basilisk as Voldemort 
appointed Wormtail, I see no difference.  

Of the three examples you have given, there is only one that we can 
be certain was at the hand of the newly semi-resurrected Voldemort 
and that would be Frank. Bertha was disposed of but was it Voldemort 
or Wormtail that disposed of her (he claimed he only had one power 
that remained with him, so he could possess her but could he kill 
her?); did Voldemort have a body at this point to dispose of her 
(Wormtail brought Bertha to Voldemort soon after he found Voldemort, 
would there have been time to give him the baby body required to kill 
her?). Madam Bones was killed but no name was given to the killer, 
only assumption and we don't know if she attempted to fight back, 
which I think makes a big difference between killed and murdered. 

Carol again:

But "a bit of Voldemort" is not necessarily a bit of Voldemort's soul,
as I keep saying. Just committing murder does not create a Horcrux, as
we agree...

Snow:

That is true, we don't know for certain and can only surmise what 
happened through the six books we have. I would like to know though, 
how Voldemort only took with him one power of the many that he had, 
when his body was vanquished at GH:

"Only one power remained to me. I could possess the bodies of 
others." GOF 653

I would think that he had had all his powers before his attempted AK 
on Harry at GH, so I would think that one could assume that those 
remaining powers went with Harry, where else did they go if not with 
Harry? How did Voldemort get any of his powers back? (I'm fairly sure 
you might remember Satellite!Harry so I wont go on from here under 
this particular vein) 

Carol continuing:

...nor do we have any evidence of free-floating soul bits at
GH, or soul bits that can lodge themselves in a host. 
If that were the case, Harry would be possessed, and we know that he 
isn't.

Snow:

I wouldn't call it possession per se but we do know that Harry felt 
as if he knew Tom Riddle for some reason when he first heard his 
name. We also know that Harry was becoming a bit dark in GOF 
(Voldemort had some type of body) and even more so in OOP (Voldemort 
was fully resurrected to a human form) when he resorted to the use of 
an unforgivable curse on Bella before his actual possession attempted 
by Voldemort in the Atrium, which rid Voldemort's connection through 
Legilimency that was probably influencing Harry's dark side or, in 
other words, the soul fragment connection. 

Trelawney also saw the Voldemort side of Harry when she told him that 
he was born during the Winter solstice, which we now know Voldemort 
was.

Carol:

> Granted. He has some of Voldemort's *powers*, including 
Parseltongue,
> a unique form of mutual Legilimency, and possibly possession, which 
I
> expect to see in Book 7. But we're told that magic resides in the
> blood (not a drop of magical blood in the Dursleys' veins,
> 
> Snow:
> 
> Not a drop? And yet Harry is most protected there beyond anything 
> that Dumbledore could have ever have empowered for a protection,
why? <snip>

Carol:

Because Lily and Petunia are blood relatives. But that doesn't make
Petunia's blood magical. 

Snow:

Petunia's blood was not born magical but when she took Harry in she 
sealed the pact that Dumbledore presented. Dumbledore used the 
connection of the family's blood to make the most powerful ancient 
magical protection against Voldemort:

"
she sealed the charm "I" placed upon you. "Your mother's sacrifice 
made the bond of blood the strongest shield "I" could give you." OOP 
836

If Dumbledore used the bond of blood as part of the charm, wouldn't 
it follow that Petunia earned this protection as well, after all the 
same blood runs through her veins? 

Carol continuing:

Here's the quote:

"The Dursleys were what wizards called Muggles (not a drop of magical
blood in their veins) (CoS Am. ed. 3). The magic in Lily's blood must
be a mutation. It certainly doesn't come from her Muggle parents. And
the blood protection has nothing to do with her powers, only with her
sacrifice.

Snow:

I'm confused. If the blood protection has nothing to do with her 
powers then how is it you maintain that Voldemort's powers are in his 
blood?

> Snow:
> 
> Harry is unique! He is a living soul that does possess a portion of 
> Voldemort. Harry does not have to die but one of them does 
according 
> to the prophecy, neither can live 

Carol snipped:

I'm not following your argument here, nor am I arguing that Harry
isn't unique. 

Snow:

I meant Harry is unique in the sense that he does have Voldemort soul 
like a Horcrux has but not the limitations of a Horcrux since he 
isn't one. The circumstances surrounding the way he received this 
portion of soul are unique and do not mimic an actual Horcrux since 
it was not a spell that purposely released the fragment of soul from 
Voldemort. 

It is this uniqueness that quantifies Harry's situation as being out 
of the typical realm of Horcrux destruction. 
 
Snow