CHAPDISC: HBP 23, Horcruxes

[justcarol67]

No: HPFGUIDX 160567

Snow wrote:

><snip> 
> Voldemort was so greedy to get his hands on Harry that he 
> underestimated Lily's sacrifice or didn't care because he wasn't 
> about to say the spell that would use that murder as a Horcrux. What 
> he failed to think of is that Lily would have not only shielded Harry 
> with her body but also a Charm, after all her wand was well suited.
>  Lily wouldn't have taken any chances with her son and, as I
surmise, placed the simplest spell that works like the old kids saying
" I'm rubber, you're glue, whatever you say, bounces off of me and
sticks to you". Simple but effective, the son-of-a-gun killed himself
by means of an AK to his own body. <snip>
> 
Carol reponds:

I used to believe that Lily had placed a protective charm on Harry
(why else have Ollivander say "nice wand for Charm work"?) and that it
had something to do with the Eihwaz rune (Defense or Protection) that
Hermione mentions in OoP, but JKR has nixed that particular theory by
saying that Lily didn't anticipate her death and that it was her
sacrifice that triggered the deflected AK. That pretty much lets out
any protective charm theories, unfortunately. And we know, of course,
that there's no countercurse for the AK. Protego, which deflects minor
hexes in the way you so humorously describe, doesn't work against the
Unforgiveables.

Snow:
> 
> The aim of the AK was clearly directed at Harry; Lily was clearly 
> murdered moments prior to the AK attempt; Voldemort clearly lost his 
> body with this particular gesture; Harry clearly obtained abilities 
> that belong to Voldemort during this action. This all suggests, to 
> me, that Harry did receive a Horcrux portion of soul that night but 
> not in the encasement manner that coincides with the proper making
of a Horcrux. <snip>

Carol:

But many acts of murder are committed in the WW, especially now that
Voldemort is back. Wormtail has killed, what, thirteen people? Yet not
one of these murders was used to create a Horcrux. Voldemort has also,
according to Dumbledore, murdered a great many people, including some
since his restoration to a body, and not all have been used for
Horcruxes. So he doesn't murder *just* to create a Horcrux. He murders
for a variety of reasons, ranging from getting rid of someone he has
no further use for (Bertha Jorkins) to eliminating a potentially
dangerous enemy (Madam Bones). So the first step in creating a
Horcrux, murder, happens all the time. That's no guarantee that a
Horcrux will result. IMO, it has to be followed by the second step,
the detachment of the soul fragment created by the murder and its
encasement in an object (or creature, if we count Nagini). As we both
agree, no such spell was performed at Godric's Hollow.

Carol earlier:
> 
> But I think that if Harry thought his scar contained a soul bit,
he'd see himself as a Horcrux and believe that he has to be
sacrificed, which takes us back to the unsolvable dilemma of how to
destroy himself, the last Horcrux, and kill Voldemort, too. 
> 
> Snow:
> 
> Which is why Dumbledore purposely did not make that particular 
> connection evident. Harry has to view this portion of Voldemort 
> outside the purposely-made Horcrux limitation. The soul bit that I 
> propose is in Harry was not encased within him so there should be
the possibility to expel it or use it against Voldemort without harm
to Harry. 

Carol:
Wouldn't it be simpler if Harry simply had some of Voldemort's powers?
That way there's no soul bit to eliminate and no chance of his
confusing himself with a Horcrux. (As I said, I still don't see how a
soul bit could have gotten into Harry without a spell, and if it did,
he's to all intents and purposes a Horcrux.)

> Carol:
> I disagree. Tom killed Myrtle using the Basilisk as his weapon. If
you sic your pit bull on someone, ordering the dog to kill the person,
and the person dies, aren't you guilty of murder? 
> 
> Snow:
> 
> With this proposal, wouldn't each death appointed to a deatheater 
> fall back on Voldemort as the killer? Wouldn't the deatheater merely 
> become the weapon?
> 
Carol:
Not really. Nagini is the instrument (weapon) in Myrtle's death just
as his wand is the instrument in the other deaths. Wormtail or some
other Death Eater acts as Voldemort's *agent* (a human being carrying
out the orders or wishes of another), not as his instrument. The
Basilisk, whose only desire is to kill and which cannot disobey Tom's
orders is not an agent. It lacks free will. It's an instrument
(weapon) whose eyes and fangs are as deadly as any potion or killing
curse. Tom's command to the Basilisk ("Kill her!" or "Kill him!") is
analogous to his command to his wand, "Avada Kedavra!" Or do you think
that if he'd succeeded in commanding the Basilisk to kill Harry in the
CoS that it wouldn't have been murder because the Basilisk was the
murderer? Not in my view.

Snow:
<snip> Madam Bones was killed but no name was given to the killer, 
> only assumption and we don't know if she attempted to fight back, 
> which I think makes a big difference between killed and murdered. 
> 
Carol: Possibly you're thinking of Emmeline Vance. Madam Bones was
apparently killed by Voldemort himself, as Fudge tells the Prime
Minister in "The Other Minister":

"Amelia Bones. The Head of the Department of Magical Law Enforcement.
We think He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named may have murdered her in person,
because she was a very gifted witch and--and all the evidence was that
she put up a real fight" (HBP Am. ed. 13). Admittedly, Fudge's opinion
hasn't been confirmed, but it suggests that Voldemort has killed on
his own before. Mad-Eye Moody says that he killed one of the Order
members, Dorcas Meadows, in person, so he's clearly done it before.
And I doubt that Dorcas's murder was important enough to be used to
make a Horcrux. Note that Dumbledore says that Voldemort normally
reserved Horcrux-making for important murders, implying that he
committed many routine murders without a DE acting as his agent.

> Snow:
> 
> That is true, we don't know for certain and can only surmise what 
> happened through the six books we have. I would like to know though, 
> how Voldemort only took with him one power of the many that he had, 
> when his body was vanquished at GH:
> 
> "Only one power remained to me. I could possess the bodies of 
> others." GOF 653
> 
> I would think that he had had all his powers before his attempted AK 
> on Harry at GH, so I would think that one could assume that those 
> remaining powers went with Harry, where else did they go if not with 
> Harry? How did Voldemort get any of his powers back? <snip>

Carol:

I think he had only the one power because he had no body. Once he
could hold a wand again, he could perform any of the spells he knew
before and could perform Legilimency. Of course, he needed a magical
body, which is why he needed Nagini's blood. And his resurrected body
required the bone of his father (his hated Muggle father, who so
closely resembled his son), the flesh of a (wizard) servant, and the
blood of another servant. I don't think that just any body would do.
It had to be his own Horcrux-altered body reconstituted, as nearly as
magic could reconstruct it. Not that I see the connection to Harry the
unofficial Horcrux here. I think it's significant that Vapor!mort
didn't possess the body of his infant enemy, though. Did he try to do
so and fail because of Lily's sacrifice? Or did that thought not occur
to him because he was in too much agony to think of anything else?

> Snow:
> 
> I wouldn't call it possession per se but we do know that Harry felt 
> as if he knew Tom Riddle for some reason when he first heard his 
> name. We also know that Harry was becoming a bit dark in GOF 
> (Voldemort had some type of body) and even more so in OOP (Voldemort 
> was fully resurrected to a human form) when he resorted to the use
of an unforgivable curse on Bella before his actual possession
attempted by Voldemort in the Atrium, which rid Voldemort's connection
through Legilimency that was probably influencing Harry's dark side
or, in other words, the soul fragment connection. <snip>

Carol:
Or rather, the scar connection, which, like the Dark Marks on the arms
of the Death Eaters, grew stronger as Voldemort grew stronger. The
soul fragment connection is an assumption on your part.


Carol:
> 
> Because Lily and Petunia are blood relatives. But that doesn't make
> Petunia's blood magical. 
> 
> Snow:
> 
> Petunia's blood was not born magical but when she took Harry in she 
> sealed the pact that Dumbledore presented. Dumbledore used the 
> connection of the family's blood to make the most powerful ancient 
> magical protection against Voldemort:
> 
> "
she sealed the charm "I" placed upon you. "Your mother's sacrifice 
> made the bond of blood the strongest shield "I" could give you." OOP 
> 836
> 
> If Dumbledore used the bond of blood as part of the charm, wouldn't 
> it follow that Petunia earned this protection as well, after all the 
> same blood runs through her veins?

Carol:
But that doesn't make Petunia's blood magical. she's still a Muggle,
with nonmagical Muggle blood, and will never, as JKR has told us, be
able to perform magic. If Petunia benefits because of the blood
protection, it's because of Dumbledore's extension of the blood
protection to her and because of her blood relationship to Lily, not
because of any magic in her own blood. But Voldemort, as a wizard,
*does* have magic in his blood, as does Harry, which is why
Voldemort's powers could have passed to Harry through a drop of his
blood entering Harry's cut (without diminishing Voldemort's own powers
once he regained a magical body) and why Voldemort specifically wanted
Harry's magical blood, with its blood protection, as opposed to some
other wizard's (a Muggles's blood would not do because it isn't magical).

> Snow:
> 
> I meant Harry is unique in the sense that he does have Voldemort
soul like a Horcrux has but not the limitations of a Horcrux since he 
> isn't one. The circumstances surrounding the way he received this 
> portion of soul are unique and do not mimic an actual Horcrux since 
> it was not a spell that purposely released the fragment of soul from 
> Voldemort. 
> 
> It is this uniqueness that quantifies Harry's situation as being out 
> of the typical realm of Horcrux destruction. 

Carol:
I think he's unique in having some of Voldemort's powers and in being
the Chosen One (unwittingly) "marked" by Voldemort as his equal. Only
Harry has the scar that connects him mentally, and to some degree,
emotionally, with Voldemort. Only Harry has (or had) access to his
mind and his dreams. Only Harry has ever known what it feels like to
be Voldemort.

That's sufficiently unique (to modify an unmodifiable adjective), I
think. No need for a soul bit that's somehow different from those in
the Horcruxes and exempt from the need for destruction. (Surely it
will have to go beyond the Veil with the others for Voldemort to be
fully and permanently dead?)

Carol, who agrees with you on many points but not the main one