[HPforGrownups] Umbridge as tyrant / Twins leaving Hogwarts/ I don't think Harry will die/Snape and Draco

[Magpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 160751

> Charles:
> Not taking rights away? You're kidding, right? Let's start with her
> DADA classes. She actively tries to prevent Hogwarts students from
> learning self-defense, knowing that outside of school there are
> situations where they could need to defend themselves, Voldie or no.
> Self-defense is a basic human right, stemming from the right to life.

Magpie:
I said she was taking away rights *as students* which she still is.  She's 
got her own agenda for how classes will be taught, and for DADA she wants 
theory rather than practical spells.  The objections to this are valid, but 
she's still teaching DADA.  Durmstrang teaches the Dark Arts and Hogwarts 
only teaches defense.  That's also a choice of what or how a subject will be 
taught.

Charles:
> Next, we have the fact that all mail incoming and outgoing is being
> read by her or her IS. That means that the entire student body of
> Hogwarts is effectively cut off from their parents.

Magpie:
It's giving them fewer rights as students, yes.  I didn't deny the parallels 
to a tyrranical ruler.  I just pointed out that the stricter rules she's 
enforcing are rules for students in a school.

Charles:
Harry is
> subjected to torture for speaking his mind. There she has taken away
> his freedom of speech.

Magpie:
Yes, I know what Umbridge's agenda is. I said she's acting as a teacher in a 
school.  Snape abuses his power in his class also.  I'd also note that when 
Umbridge punishes Harry with her quill she's not headmistress and Harry 
could have objected to that to Dumbledore and chose not to.  I'm not 
defending Umbridge's decisions with the students.  I just said she's doing 
it as a teacher and a headmistress.  She's running her school like a 
totalitarian state; she's not running a totalitarian state.  And her 
attempts at control result in chaos and less control for her.

Charles:
Now, I don't know about Britain or indeed the
> rest of the world, but in America students retain their rights rather
> than "shed them at the schoolhouse gate" (I can't remember what court
> case that's from right now, but someone around here probably knows.) > as 
> long as they don't disrupt the school in trying to practice those
> rights. While Harry did disrupt the class, he was not punished for
> that, but rather the content of his opinion

Magpie:
Actually, I wouldn't be surprised if plenty of students in the real world 
haven't been punished for "the content of their opinion" when it's 
considered to disrupt class. I have the same objections to that as I do to 
it when Umbridge does it, but of course Harry retains the right to speech in 
the world, since he gives an interview to the press.

> Charles:
>
> "Just drop out" Hmmm...let's think about the circumstances here.
> Their dropping out was a flight from torture after aiding fellow DA
> members to defy Umbridge. They created a swamp in a corridor that
> Umbridge couldn't remove, and therefore caused a problem for her and
> a certain one of her collaborators.

Magpie:
Yeah, they dropped out.  They left.  Dramatically and with a last 
nose-thumbing at Umbridge, and they left school.

Charles:
> How are they carrying the battle to new heights and territory? Look
> at the description of their shop at the beginning of HBP! They are
> doing something very improtant. In a world full of fear they are
> doing their damndest to raise morale-right down to a giant poster
> taunting Voldemort. Remember that much of Moldybutt's power is
> through fear, and they are trying to alleviate some of the fear in
> the populace-a dangerous and necessary bit of work.

Magpie:
They're running their joke shop like they always wanted and planned, and 
they're making money selling their products--and will probably continue to 
do so after Voldemort's gone.  They didn't join the Order. Sometimes their 
goal helps one side, sometimes the other side.  And I think they just think 
U-No-Poo is funny.

Charles:
> Charles, who is still startled that someone could try and defend
> Umbridge.

Magpie:
I'm startled--though I shouldn't be anymore--that I'm considered to have 
defended Umbridge. What I said was that she was a headmistress enforcing 
rules in a school.  I didn't defend her at all. I even acknowledged the 
parallels to a tyranical leader in the world. Just because I'm not convinced 
by certain imo too flattering spins on the behavior of the good guys does 
not make me a defender of Umbridge.  Ironically, this thread started about 
Hermione, whose behavior I often have the same problems with as I do with 
Umbridge.

Barb:
I have wondered if Harry' s success in potions is a sign of a blossoming 
gift.  I didn't take his using the notes as cheating, but rather as a sign 
that Harry is "thinking outside the box" or "thinking beyond the text."

Magpie:
Actually, Harry's not thinking beyond the text.  He's following text same as 
everyone, only his text is written in the margins.  Snape was the one 
thinking beyond the text.

Barb:
I've also wondered if the Potter family business is somehow related to 
potions.  it would be the ultimate irony.

Magpie:
The Potters don't have to have ever had a business. I hesitate to speak with 
any knowledge on this but I've seen fanfic Brit-pickers occasionally 
identify what they think is an American tendency to equate money with a 
family business.  The Potters could just have inherited wealth from 
landowning etc.

lazylacelacey:
Possibly HP will battle Snape & Draco.  Maybe he will kill them before he 
gets to Voldemort.  Just maybe's.  Then again, Voldemort might kill both & 
then Narcissa.  Who knows, until the book arrives?

Magpie:
Nobody knows, but that ending would surprise me.  First it's got Harry 
killing a lot of people, one of whom is a peer.  I think Snape is DDM 
already so it would be odd for Harry to kill him, but I'd also think it odd 
that Harry would be killing Draco after the book where he felt the closest 
thing to something positive towards him he ever had, the book where Draco 
himself couldn't kill Harry's mentor and the book where Harry almost killed 
Draco by accident and felt badly about it.

-m