[HPforGrownups] Re: Umbridge as tyrant / Twins leaving Hogwarts/ Why I hate Hermione

[Magpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 160770


> Charles:
>
> So all these students who will have no idea how to defend themselves
> will do what as adults? This "choice of [...]how a subject will be
> taught" as you so spinningly put it will interfere with their right
> to defend themselves as citizens *outside of* and *after* Hogwarts.

Magpie:
Again, I'm not arguing that Umbridge's teaching of DADA is the best way to 
do it.  I'm pointing out that she is teaching DADA, through theory.  DADA at 
Hogwarts is a subject that's ironically already a problem because they can't 
keep a teacher for more than a year.  Lockhart was a bad teacher as well. 
But they're getting DADA regardless of disagreements about how it should be 
taught. I of course agree with you on why Umbridge's DADA is unacceptable, 
but I still don't think you can take it so far as to say DADA being taught 
without practice of hexing=taking away someone's right to defend themselves.

It's not that I don't get that Umbridge wants the public powerless and that 
there is a political reason for that.  I think the kids are right to oppose 
her on those grounds.  I just think it's a case of nipping something in the 
bud before it becomes a lack of rights in society instead of just school. 
For a real world equivalent, for instance, I think it's equally unfair for 
people to interfere with students learning science because it threatens 
their beliefs.  I see the same danger in that.  I just wouldn't describe it 
as taking away their rights to do science.  What they're doing is actually 
more insideous.

> Charles:
> She's also interfering with the *parental* rights here as well.

Magpie:
And the parents will have to protest that if they don't want their letters 
read.  I think they have every reason to protest it.  I certainly wouldn't 
stand for my child's mail being read.  I'm just saying this is something 
she's claiming to be able to do as their headmistress protecting the school. 
She has no rights over mail the parents might send to someone else.


> Charles:
> She is acting as a teacher in a school, but as part of a wider
> political agenda to bring more power to the ministry. Look at the
> argument in career advising-Hogwarts is not only a school to
> Umbridge, it is a path to creating power, for herself and Fudge. What
> I'm saying here is that you are playing down the farther reaching
> nature of her actions. Remember that she is still "Senior
> Undersecretary to the Minister" I'll give you that Umbridge is
> not "Der Fuerher" (sp?) -but I'd certainly say that she's like
> Torquemada. Remember too what Fudge's reason for putting her there is-
> to attempt to destroy Dumbledore. Her ineffectiveness does not excuse
> her actions or her intent.

Magpie:
I didn't think I'd ever denied this.  I see that she can represent a 
government movement.  I'm just saying that it's all played out in the 
school, which rejects the government interference.  The naming of 
Dumbledore's Army is even an ironic reference to the kids setting themselves 
against the Ministry under the banner of alternate leader Dumbledore.

> Magpie:
>> Yeah, they dropped out.  They left.  Dramatically and with a last
>> nose-thumbing at Umbridge, and they left school.
>>
>
> Charles:
> Again, nice spin. Like I said, they participated in an act to
> frustrate Umbridge, they did not just skive off.

Magpie:
By saying they dropped out I in no way meant to imply they just skived off.

Charles:
Even if they had not
> been involved in helping Harry et al to get around Umbridge, they
> were in increasing danger and they knew it. I'm not denying that they
> dropped out, my problem was "just dropped out" -the connotation of
> merely leaving and ignoring the context because it didn't fit your
> argument.

Magpie:
I didn't realize I was ignoring the context.  I though it went without 
saying that we all knew the circumstances under which they left.  They left 
in a blaze of glory that was a blow against Umbridge.  I just don't see how 
it's something about taking the battle elsewhere when to me it was clearly 
their exit from the story of OotP.  The Twins could leave when they did 
because they were in a position to do so.  I'm not suggesting their leaving 
was a bad thing to do, but it's not like they made a thoughtful sacrifice of 
something because they felt they had to do it for the cause.

>> Magpie:
>> They're running their joke shop like they always wanted and
> planned, and
>> they're making money selling their products--and will probably
> continue to
>> do so after Voldemort's gone.  They didn't join the Order.
> Sometimes their
>> goal helps one side, sometimes the other side.  And I think they
> just think
>> U-No-Poo is funny.
>>
> Charles:
> Possibly. But they certainly know that it is an insult to Voldemort.
> It is blatant. And where is your canon saying that they did not join
> the order?

Magpie:
I figured if they'd joined the Order we'd hear about it--we know Bill's part 
of it, for instance.  But regardless, my point wasn't that they hadn't 
joined the Order and therefore were not working for them.  I just meant they 
didn't leave school because they wanted to dedicate themselves to fighting 
Voldemort on the grander scale.  You can be anti-Voldemort without joining 
the Order, but the Twins are leaving school to start their joke shop.  The 
first description made it sound otherwise.

> Charles:
> But you yourself were trying to play down Umbridge's actions as less
> tyrannical than a dictator's.

Magpie:
I did not intend to play them down as less tyrannical at all--I tried to 
make that clear in saying there were parallels to dictators.  I thought the 
distinction I was making was just the power she actually had. And I also 
pointed out ways that her attempts at tyranny failed, which again doesn't 
make her any better.  To that end I didn't think I spun Hermione's actions 
up, just pointed out that it is Hermione who is successful in the long-term 
when she quashes resistance.  Umbridge is in most ways far worse than 
Hermione.  And it's probably also significant to me that Umbridge is 
punished within canon when she behaves the way she does, while Hermione 
isn't.

Charles:
> Ok, I've defended Hermione again for the umpteenth time. Now I'm
> going to interject the reason that I don't like her. The *entire*
> reason she is upset by the potions book is because Harry does better
> than her in class. She's po'd before she even knows why Harry's
> potion is coming out better, she's just pissed that someone topped
> her academically. She then starts on a systematic campaign of nagging
> and research throughout the year to get him to stop using it. This in
> turn spurs Harry and Ron's defense of the book and is one of the
> reasons that Harry starts to trust the book too much, IMO. And I feel
> her "I told you so" after DD's death deserves a swift kick.

Magpie:
Yup, I agree.:-)


Janette:
In this book, in particular, he is going through a very angst-ridden teenage
phase, and feels hard-done by most of the time (justifiably IMO).  He
doesn't even tell Hermione and Ron about the quill till Ron sees the scars.
That does not give Umbridge the right to torture the boy, and the Ministry
should not have imposed such a sadistic person on the school as a teacher
with complete authority over everyone and everything there.

Magpie
Yeah, I think part of the theme is that Harry is more vulnerable when he's 
alone.  When the school stands together Umbridge has no power.

Janette:
Her whole purpose was to prevent free speech to Harry and his supporters,
and to ridicule anything he had ever said, in the eyes of the WW.

Magpie:
Right, she wanted to prevent anyone from hearing an opposing viewpoint to 
her own.

Janette:
montims:
Be fair - they wanted to join, but Molly and the other Order members said
they were too young.  I wouldn't be surprised if they were now Order
members.

Magpie:
I really regret not making myself more clear in that sentence.  I didn't 
mean "they didn't join the Order" as an accusation of apathy on the Twins' 
part.  I only meant to say that their flight from Hogwarts was to the adult 
life they'd always planned.  They didn't leave so that they could dedicate 
themselves to fighting Voldemort.  They don't have to actually be in the 
Order to be anti-Voldemort, and their running their shop doesn't prevent 
them from also being in the Order.

-m