What Came First: Task or Cabinet? - The Plan v1 & v2/Bigotry or Not?

[horridporrid03]

No: HPFGUIDX 157742

> >>Magpie:
> > I have said on numerous occasions I'm not saying that people    
> > can't have this as a theory.  But particularly if I'm being told 
> > something is going on in front of me in the book

> >>Random832:
> You're _not_ being told that, though. You're merely drawing a
> conclusion from the things you have been told. Others have drawn a
> different conclusion.

Betsy Hp:
Only the first conclusion is based on things stated (and restated) 
within HBP.  The second conclusion (the "Cabinet came first" theory) 
is based on pure speculation and a desire for a different sort of 
thinking from Voldemort.

So, IMO, the two are not equal. One is canon, the other is not.  Of 
course JKR could write in a scene in book 7 where she has someone 
explain that the summing up scene on the tower was wrong, and 
actually the whole ball started rolling because of Draco.  JKR could 
also write a similar scene wherein Ginny explained that in CoS she 
actually did the whole diary thing to make Harry notice her (thanks 
Magpie <g>).  I highly doubt that's going to happen, but of course 
people can theorize.  It gets complicated when they try and equate 
their theory with canon, however. 

> >>Random832:
> Also, I don't seriously think that Draco's orders were anything   
> other than to kill DD. But that doesn't mean we know it for a     
> fact. I think there's substantially more doubt, however
> as to how the plan developed. We don't know and there is no obvious
> conclusion. Our _only_ source for it being Voldemort wanting to   
> send Draco on an impossible mission to get revenge on the Malfoys 
> is Narcissa, a character whom JKR has _not_ done anything in      
> particular to set up as a reliable source of information - and     
> neither Bellatrix nor Snape even claim she's right.

Betsy Hp:
I just don't get why there's such a strong reluctance to see this 
story as done.  We had the summing up scene.  Dumbledore and Draco 
discussed the fact that Voldemort had told Draco to kill Dumbledore. 

Goodness, Narcissa makes it clear that Voldemort chose Draco (not 
the other way around) at Spinner's End, and neither Snape nor 
Bellatrix chimed in to say, "Well, that's what you think, but..." or 
anything of the sort.

I suppose we can have a discussion about *why* Voldemort chose Draco 
for that particular task (though I'm confused as to why the reason 
given isn't good enough, especially as Dumbledore seems to buy it) 
but that doesn't effect that fact that Voldemort did the choosing 
and Draco was the boy he chose.

> >>Random832:
> If "making up theories" is to be separate from "literary analysis",
> you can't analyze anything at all other than what's shown on the   
> page.

Betsy Hp:
Well... yeah.  That's what literary analysis is.  There's still 
plenty to discuss of course (witness DDM Snape vs ESE Snape) but the 
discussion *is* limited to what is actually written.

> >>Random832:
> You just want to analyze the text in conjunction with _your_      
> theory, and to accuse anyone who wants to go off of a different   
> theory of "crashing them together".

Betsy Hp:
Except what Magpie is arguing *isn't* a theory.  It's canon.  It's 
the story HBP tells.  Now, if the "Cabinet Came First" theory is 
proven correct in book 7 it means that Draco's story in HBP was 
basically one giant redherring (and really badly written, IMO) but 
there's nothing yet to hang that theory on.  So at this point in 
time Magpie's version is canon.

Frankly, I could do that with anything.  I could state that the 
reason Dumbledore loves sweets is that he's a child molester and all 
will be revealed in book 7 and anyone who states otherwise is just 
stating an opposing theory not canon at all, because really, who 
knows...  At which point chaos reigns. <g>

> >>Random832:
> Your theory that Narcissa has some special insight into           
> Voldemort's motives is no less controversial than any other theory.

Betsy Hp:
See, this is what's so odd to me.  The entire discussion is about 
whether Voldemort chose Draco or Draco chose Voldemort (who 
approached whom) and for some reason the conversation keeps getting 
dragged around to Voldemort's motivations.  Why?  It's confusing and 
it fogs the issue.

Who cares (at this point) *why* Voldemort chose Draco, all we're 
trying to say is that *as per canon* Voldemort Draco.  And Narcissa 
doesn't need to understand a thing about Voldemort to correctly 
interpert Voldemort giving her son a task as Voldemort, well, 
choosing her son to do a certain task.

> >>Random832:
> <snip>
> It's not even clear that Narcissa would draw the same conclusion   
> if she knew that Draco had a decent shot of pulling it off, and   
> it's not clear that even if she would she'd be right.
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
Even if Narcissa thought Draco could complete his task easily she'd 
still come to the same exact conclusion as to whether Voldemort 
sought out Draco or Draco sought out Voldemort.  And everybody in 
the room (and on the Tower, for that matter) seemed under the 
impression that it was Voldemort who sought out Draco.  That it 
might have been the other way around is *never* raised as a 
possibility by anyone in the books.  (I'm stating that so 
confidently because I'm sure if such a statement *had* been made, it 
would have been quoted on this thread a long time ago.)

Betsy Hp