[HPforGrownups] Cabinet FIRST! One last time.

[Magpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 157769

Steve:

> I'm not even sure why I am back in this discussion again
> since I think it has taken a irrational turn. As much as
> it pains me to say this, and as much as it may appear to
> be a personal attack, I must say that when Betsy and
> Magpie are arguing the /merits/ of their /interpretation/
> of canon, they are spot on, but when they are agruing the
> /demerits/ of my /interpretation/ of canon, they are lost
> in impossible flights of fancy.

Magpie:
There are about eight versions of the Cabinet First theory going around, and 
many of them are changing more in canon than yours is, so it's become a bit 
like fighting one of those monsters with many heads. Some people have worked 
onto changing more in the story already.  Though I do think changing the way 
the story begins by definition changes the plot and the story in this case.

Steve:
>From this point on, the story plays
out the same either way. Despite what Betsy and Magpie /claim/, the story 
plays the same.

Magpie:
Right, this is another core disagreement, which I addressed in my 
"carpenter" analogy.  You're denying that there's any difference just as the 
person who doesn't build houses for a living denies that they can't do 
something that the carpenter says changes the structure, or that building a 
house with a garage built onto the side is the same as building a house 
without a garage.  Imo in constructing the story this does make a 
difference.

And we can just leave that to either agree or disagree, since it doesn't 
change the fact that whether it would change the story or not, it's still 
not something the author wrote into the story.  Everyone in canon talks 
about Draco being given this assignment, no one ever challenges that he was 
given the assignment to punish Lucius.  The opening of the story is a 
distraught mother reacting to this fact.  If there were scenes where it was 
shown that people on the other side didn't understand why LV chose Draco, 
the Cabinet would be the answer.  There would be some indication that 
something happened between Draco and Voldemort Snape and Narcissa didn't 
understand.  Instead the story plays it the opposite way, that Snape is sure 
about what happened between LV and Draco--everyone is--he's just not sure 
what Draco is doing to carry out LV's wishes.

You are saying that none of this matters, that JKR doesn't have to write 
this into the story in any way for it to be true.  So I'm now proving a 
negative, an unfalsified premise.  You don't have to give any evidence *for* 
what you're saying happened, you just have to say that I can't prove it 
didn't happen.  But any things I have in the text that do seem to indicate 
it you can explain away any way you like.

Steve:
Not so, in his limited schoolboy view, Draco does what Draco always does; he 
causes trouble.

Magpie:
Which is exactly the way Betsy and I have said that your story changes the 
story.  It's Draco trying to cause trouble and causing trouble for himself. 
That's a beginning to a story.  You've added that on to a story where Draco 
is chosen to die as punishment for his father's screw ups, two different 
openings.  JKR knows who Draco is and could easily have used that opening. 
She gave a slightly different set up.

Steve:
Draco goes into that conference with schoolboy motives, but he comes out of 
it shouldering an
impossible burden even for a man. It's no wonder he has forgetten all about 
Harry. He's fighting for his life.

Magpie:
Again, this is exactly what I believe both Betsy and I have claimed is 
changed in your story, and have argued against for reasons we've outlined in 
other posts.  You're writing one more satisfying comeuppance moment for 
Draco in between the two books with a development already happened: Draco's 
petty childish scheme thrown back at him as a man's job he must shoulder. If 
this happened I don't see why it would not actually be in the story.  It 
means something regarding the character, even more than the fact that Sirius 
convinced James to switch Secret Keepers is part of Sirius.

Steve:
Regardless of which one you buy, at some
point in the next book, the book IS going to come to a screeching halt while 
Draco's subplot is resolved. It is one of the major hanging story threads.

Magpie:
I believe the point Betsy was making there was not that Draco's story did 
not have more to go, but that the mystery of what he was doing in HBP was 
done.  This element would mean going back and re-explaining the story in 
this book differently when we learned Draco actually caused all the plot 
trouble himself.  And if JKR puts that in there, it will certainly be canon, 
but right now it is nonexistant.  I think Betsy's also questioning why, with 
all we've got left to do and the even more desperate situation Draco is 
already in, why JKR would want or need to look back to the first chapters of 
this story, assuming what's more important is where the new character Draco 
is at the end of HBP will go and be.

Steve:
Why Draco? Why not someone else? Well, secrecy for one. Also, who better 
than Draco to fix the cabinet. He's aleady at Hogwarts. As is seen from 
people's reactions, no one would expect Draco to be personally working with 
Voldemort.

Magpie:
The "Why Draco?" answer given in the book was that chosen to punish his 
father.  You've now added more conflicting reasons for it to be Draco--it's 
a strategic choice for Voldemort's Cabinet Plan (with the added monkey 
wrench that Draco is sending out poisoned mead and necklaces and so risking 
expulsion, jail and death, all of which would make him unable to fix the 
cabnet).  The Revenge on the Malfoys theory is presented in the first 
chapter, never questioned, nobody acts out of character for it.  No one in 
canon finds the explanation unsatisfactory.

Your explanation here reveals imo different priorities to those of the story 
and of, it seems, JKR.  You're  coming up with ways to make this a good 
strategic plan to get into Hogwarts for LV with the plot in the book a side 
issue at best.  The story never makes that a priority.  It explains itself 
with the very fact that it's not a great strategic plan.  And if there are 
good reasons for Draco to be the one fixing a Cabinet LV wants fixed then 
Draco's not just on a suicide mission, but helping a somewhat important 
mission for Voldemort because he's uniquely qualified for it.  It does 
change the story, just as it changes the story to say that Ginny 
intentionally allowed the diary to seduce her to get Harry's attention, or 
that Lucius is giving Ginny the diary in CoS on Voldemort's orders, even if 
you can make the physical events in canon come out the same.

Steve:
Finally, you keep asking for canon, but before I give it
let me point out that Spinner's End does not confirm Betsy's or Magpie's 
view. I think their interpretation is the way that JKR wanted us to 
interpret the books while the story was playing out.

Magpie:
So you agree that canon gives us our version.  You're giving us reasons you 
disagree with the version canon and are expecting a revision later.  It will 
only be canon if in the next book it's revealed to be true in the books.

Steve:
One could say that Harry flat our says with absolute
certainty that Draco has the Dark Mark. Also, hints are dropped that this 
might be true.

Magpie:
Actually, no you can't.  I know within the context here that sounds like 
hedging, but it's basic book-reading skill.  Whether Draco has the Dark Mark 
is presented in the mouth of a character who's supposed to be coming to the 
question with no information.  He's basing his conclusion on things we 
ourselves saw with him and did not necessarily add up to what he's saying. 
Finally, most importantly to this thread, Harry's conclusion is not the only 
one given.  Does Draco not want Madam Malkin to see his tattoo?  Or did he 
get stuck with a pin, something he's already complaining about before Harry 
walks in?  (Iirc, those are the two versions and fanon actually conflates 
the two things and remembers it as Draco's Dark Mark being painful, thus 
mixing the two versions together.)  We never find out what Draco did to make 
Borgin afraid, which might give weight to Harry's idea.  But still even 
being in Harry's view the Dark Mark isn't something he bases much on--what 
he is sure of is that he's acting as a DE.

As it happens the story doesn't depend on whether or not Draco has the 
Mark--if it did I think we'd be told one way or the other.  And maybe I am 
supposed to be taking Harr's view as truth--after all, JKR specifically 
showed me Draco not getting the Hand of Glory and then had people talking as 
if they know he has one.  So if in the next book it's taken as a given I'll 
say my bad that I didn't get that was supposed to be canon and JKR's bad for 
not presenting it conclusively enough for me, but at least she didn't omit 
it entirely.   Both Draco having a Dark Mark and not having one are options 
within canon. How Draco got this assignment is a far more important thing, 
and we're given only one reason for it that seems to be guiding the actions 
of several important characters.

You are certainly welcome to hold out for more information.  But that's 
saying, "I don't think the version of the story we got in HBP is true."  It 
still acknowledges that HBP gave us this version and not an alternate one. 
Draco's having the Dark Mark is indeed presented as a possibility in the 
book.  Draco's telling Voldemort about the Cabinet and setting things in 
motion that way is not.

Steve:
Admittedly, I am filling in a little of the off-page back-
story, but that back story fits my interpretation of the
book to a tee.

Magpie:
Which I think is exactly what we are saying you're doing, filling in stuff 
off the page to support your interpretation of the book.  We're more using 
the stuff in the book to come to an interpretation.

-m