[HPforGrownups] Re: What Came First: Task or Cabinet? - The Plan v1 & v2/Re: Draco's task (For M

[Magpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 157783


>> Magpie:
>> You're right in that--all story involves some interpretation.  I am
>> interpreting, yes. As your (reasonable) interpretation of the words
>> in CoS leads you to remember us "seeing" Ginny possessed--that's how
>> I remember the book too.  I do, however, object to the idea that all
>> interpretations are equal.
>
> Random832:
> My point was that even if we don't see it in a literal sense, we see
> enough to know she didn't fake the whole thing. Are we supposed to
> believe that diary!Tom was an illusion she conjured? Are we supposed
> to believe she can speak parseltongue?

Magpie:
We can believe she willingly went along with Tom because she thought it 
would get Harry's attention rather than being unwittingly seduced by him.

Jordan:
>
> The idea that _any_ theory that's been presented thus far about HBP
> rises to the level of a hypothetical "Ginny faked the whole thing to
> get attention" theory is ridiculous.

Magpie:
They change the method by which Voldemort works through the student villain, 
and in Draco's case they change the exact situation he is responding to--one 
the author has created as carefully as she creates everything like this. 
Ginny doesn't have to be faking the whole thing (nobody's suggesting Draco's 
making up the task to kill DD), but slightly changing how she got into her 
situation--Ginny just needs to be changed into a slightly more ambitious 
young girl when she begins talking to Tom, Tom's got something slightly 
different to work with.

> Random832:
> That "idea" is _DEMONSTRABLY_ true. What's been "on the page" in any
> given book has _routinely_ been revealed in the next to have been
> misleading and incomplete in some way.

Magpie:
Things have been revealed to be misleading ON THE PAGE.  If this is revealed 
to be misleading on the page, it will become canon. The fact that Ron's rat 
turned out to be a dead Marauder does not make the idea that Arnold the 
Pygmy Puff is really James just as canonical.

Jordan:
And you haven't even pointed
> out WHERE we're shown "on the page" that Voldemort planned this as a
> suicide mission for Draco and summoned him to give him the orders.

Magpie:
We don't see that scene--just as we don't see Ginny getting possessed.  We 
see Draco's mother giving the information that Draco has been given a task 
by Voldemort.  And people react to that, don't bring up any of the problems 
with it, act in response to it...and nothing else is ever mentioned in the 
book.  There's no need for another explanation, none is offered.  You put 
the two things together and it makes for a story.  Why scratch your head and 
wonder why this is happening when the story starts with a scene saying, 
"This is what is happening and why--what are we going to do about it?"  If 
somebody else brought up the possibility that Narcissa didn't have her facts 
right--somebody in canon--I'd agree with you.

> Random832:
> A statement made by someone who is explicitly shown not to have
> critical information (even ignoring the fact that she's a Black other
> than Sirius, therefore highly likely to be a slytherin, which house's
> members have often shown to be dishonest) is _not_ conclusive.

Magpie:
These are all doubts you're bringing to the story, but as the text itself 
never suggests Narcissa (who also has more information than some other 
characters in the story) is mistaken why should I?  That suggests something 
to be revealed about what really happened, and it's not there.  If it's 
there in Book VII it will be there, but it's not in here.

Jordan:
> It being a suicide mission isn't in the text either, in any meaningful
> sense. It's in writing, sure, but between quote marks, and the person
> it's attributed to is not in a position to draw a correct conclusion.

Magpie:
The dramatic tears scene in Spinner's End isn't meaningful?  Draco's "they 
all thought I'd die" isn't meaningful?  The story hangs together fine with 
that basis?

Jordan:
> It's in the text that Narcissa does not have enough information to
> draw any other conclusion.

Magpie:
And neither does anyone else in canon and neither do we.  So why drive 
ourselves crazy asking random readers if there's anything else it could be?

> Random832:
> What information do we have now? Think carefully. The information we
> have now is that Narcissa believes that Voldemort gave Draco a suicide
> mission. Another piece of information we have is that Narcissa has _no
> knowledge_ about the cabinet. The "fact" that Voldemort gave this
> mission to Draco first (not on the basis of information about the
> cabinet) is not "information we have" at all - it's a theory. A
> conclusion drawn from the first piece of evidence above without
> considering the second.

Magpie:
You are speaking about "information" in the way Sydney described it--as if 
this is a documentary and JKR didn't have the footage to put this in the 
story.  I am using "information" as in the text, what the narrator put into 
the story, which is all there is.  If I don't accept this information I have 
no textual reason for the storyline at all except for something I make up 
from other information not linked to this question in the text.

> Magpie:
> There are about eight versions of the Cabinet First theory going around, 
> and
> many of them are changing more in canon than yours is,

Random832:
I, for one, am not convinced you are not imagining these other ones that 
supposedly completely break canon.

Magpie:
In the context of that conversation, Steve is claiming that once Draco 
mentions the Cabinet and Voldemort uses that as the basis for his plan, he 
has no more disagreements about how the story plays out.  Snow's theory has 
major disagremeents with Steve's theory, with Draco not even being given the 
task to kill DD into later in the year, and so Snape not vowing to kill DD 
in Spinner's End.  Draco is therefore not almost killing Katie and Ron in an 
attempt to kill DD. Many theories not compatible with each other.

> Magpie:
> If this happened I don't see why it would not actually be in the story.

Random832:
Because the story is about Harry.

Magpie:
So this story isn't a major part of the plot of HBP?  Any plotline featuring 
someone other than Harry is meant to be co-written with fans?  The author 
crafted this story very well despite its not being about Harry, I believe 
because ultimately this will tie back to Harry. The emotional beats are all 
consistent with the opening she gave us with nothing nodding to this version 
as well.  It's not like the information of why Draco could be given this 
task is information the author just left out--she gave us an answer to the 
question.

Random832:
He _is_ uniquely qualified. He's a student at Hogwarts. The cabinet is at 
Hogwarts. And, before you say it - it's not some other slytherin
because if it was we'd all be saying "who the heck is this and why should we 
care about him?" - Draco is the only slytherin Harry knows, and the story is 
about Harry. It's not Snape because Voldemort doesn't
trust Snape. And the _only_ basis for it being a suicide mission is that 
Narcissa thinks it is, and we KNOW she doesn't know about the cabinet.

Magpie:
Which once again changes what's going on in the story. Draco's being tapped 
because of his unique qualifications, Voldemort actually is recruiting him 
as a potential valuable DE, and he's doing it because Draco mentioned this 
Cabinet in Hogwarts, so there goes that suicide revenge plot.  Which is 
exactly what this Cabinet First plot is trying to get rid of, or bury under 
all these other concerns that contradict it.  Either Voldemort thinks this 
is a suicide mission for Draco and Draco surprises him by doing better than 
expected or Voldemort sees potential in Draco and Draco lives up to it. 
(Though there's still that necklace and mead plot where Draco risks the 
Cabinets never getting fixed by himself.)   So we've got a mish mash of 
stuff going on on that side instead of the straightforward clear story that 
we have with the Revenge Against the Malfoys version.

-m




-m