Cabinet FIRST!

[Mike]

No: HPFGUIDX 157848

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "horridporrid03" wrote:
> <ginormous snip of Carol's stuff. I'll let her respond>
> Betsy Hp:
> Have I?  I think Voldemort is very rational within his worldview.  
> His worldview is irrational, but he's pretty consistant in it.  
> And Voldemort wouldn't start a plan until he got the necessary  
> parts all lined up.
> 
> Though I also have issue with Draco going to Voldemort with an  
> idea *before* he's checked to make sure the idea is semi-sound.   
> Swing by Knockturn Alley before hitting Voldemort's.

Mike:
You know I went back to lot's of your previous posts and I agree, 
you didn't. I must have attributed others PoV to you, my bad, sorry 
once again.<g> And you've summarized exactly what my opinion of LV's 
mindset is, you have my compliments. :)
 
> Betsy Hp:
> Personally, I like the over-the-summer-hols idea. But okay, let's  
> go with everyone hears the story at Hogwarts.  At this point there 
> isn't really any reason for Draco to be worrying about how to get 
> Death Eaters into Hogwarts.  So I don't see any reason to think 
> Draco had his "aha" moment at this time (and plenty of reasons to 
> think that he didn't).

Mike:
See, I think Draco heard the story and it clicked in his head that 
there is possibility of a secretive, undocumented entryway into 
Hogwarts. No more than that, a simple recognition. Then, WHAM, his 
father gets caught and thrown in prison. Now Draco's mind starts 
racing with half-formed, unsupportable, and totally ridiculous 
ideas. From somewhere in the recesses of his mind Montague's story 
pushes it's way to the front and Draco revisits it. This time, 
instead of hitting the delete button, he pauses to think about it 
and says to himself 'maybe I can use that somehow'. That's how I 
pictured it happening for Draco and that's as far as I think he had 
advanced when he was summoned by LV.

> > Mike, previously:
> > So what do we have?
> > 1. Draco knew about the cabinets before the LV summons.        
> > Most logical canon interpretation.
> 
> Betsy Hp:
> Actually, I'd call that the least logical canon interpertation 
> because we don't see Draco checking on the viability of the 
> cabinets until much later.  So the most logical canon  
> interpertation is that Draco has his cabinet idea *after* 
> Voldemort summons him.

Mike now:
See, you're misinterpreting my approach. Notice I didn't say Draco 
formed the Cabinet plan before the LV meeting, only that Draco knew 
about the cabinets. I think that *is* the most logical canon 
interpretation. It fits much better than to have Draco visiting his 
Slytherin pals, learn of the cabinets from Montague, remark how no 
one but him realized the implications of the story, form the plan 
and begin acting on it, all within an approx 3 week period between 
getting the assignment and "Draco's Detour".

> > >>Mike previous:
> > 2. LV assigned DEs/ally to infiltrate Hogwarts. Canon.
> 
> Betsy Hp:
> Right.  Only this happens at some point *after* "Draco's Detour". 
> (Most logical conclusion per canon.)
<snip both of us>
 
> > >>Mike previous:
> > 4. LV assigned DEs to be available to Draco, at least some from 
> > the beginning.
> 
> Betsy Hp:
> I'm pretty sure Bellatrix was either assigned or volunteered to 
> train Draco.  He had to learn the Unforgivables from someone, and 
> who better to instill that "glory" and "Snape's out to steal it" 
> crap in Draco's head?  But I seriously doubt Voldemort assigned 
> anyone else to Draco at this time.  For one, he doesn't reference 
> a team when talking to Snape.  For another, neither the mead nor  
> the necklace required a team assist.  
> 
> > >>Mike previous:
> > Logical Interpretation:
> > 5. Draco told LV about the cabinets at the beginning.
> 
> Betsy Hp:
> Okay, I'm not following the leap.  Why does Voldemort need to know 
> about the cabinets before Spinner's End in order to have some 
> Death Eaters standing by at the end of the school year?  Surely  
> it doesn't take him *that* long to call a crew together.

Mike now:
These darn posts are getting too long, I'm going to cut to the 
chase. Draco has hitched his wagon to fixing the cabinet, in order 
to introduce DEs into Hogwarts. Why? What on earth made him think 
that Voldemort would lend him some DEs to complete his plan? This is 
an integral part of the Cabinet plan and this must come to him 
before "Draco's Detour", the first Saturday in August. How does 
Draco make the leap of kill D-dore to fix cabinet without the added 
piece of introducing DEs? And if Voldemort doesn't know about the 
cabinets and therefore Draco's Cabinet plan, who told Draco he gets 
DEs to secret into Hogwarts?

>From Voldemort's perspective, since when is he in the habit of 
making *his* DEs available for use to a sixteen year old kid? More 
especially, if he doesn't have any idea what this sixteen year old 
is planning with them. For that matter, if the LV's only plan is to 
get Draco killed, why on earth is he lending him any DEs at all, at 
any time?

One more piece of canon. As Carol pointed out, Voldemort is a 
powerful legilimens. No way Draco with his limited occlumency 
abilities could stop LV and no way would he try. In fact, when Snape 
asks "What thoughts are you trying to conceal from your master, 
Draco?" Draco responds: "I'm not trying to conceal anything from 
*him*, ..." Well, damn right he's not, nor could he. The topic of 
conversation here is Draco's Cabinet plan, although Snape *probably* 
doesn't know about the cabinets, yet. 

Even if Draco doesn't have the ba!!$ to speak up to Voldemort it 
doesn't matter. Voldemort doesn't need him to, if Draco is just 
thinking about the cabinets, LV will see this. And Draco has just 
admitted that he isn't hiding his Cabinet plan from LV.

If Voldemort has no more invested in this whole "kill Dumbledore" 
scheme than the probable death of Draco, and he doesn't know about 
Draco's Cabinet plan, why is he putting DEs at Draco's disposal? And 
if Voldemort hasn't already told Draco that he gets DE backup what's 
the point of fixing the stupid cabinet? 

We both agree that JKR just writes C to follow A and that's as much 
effort as she puts into timeline. So, how does 'kill Dumbledore' 
follow 'fix the cabinet' without the "B" of 'I get DE support'? 
Likewise, how does 'give the kid DEs' follow 'assign the kid a 
suicide mission' without the interceding idea of 'getting the DEs 
into Hogwarts'? These are two interlocking questions. They cannot be 
answered seperately. Draco doesn't get DEs without LV giving them 
and LV doesn't give them unless he knows why Draco needs them. Also, 
Draco doesn't have a plan without their assignment and LV doesn't 
assign them if the only plan is "suicide Draco". Without LV knowing 
about the cabinets, he has no motivation to assign DEs to the plan. 
Without the assignment of DEs, Draco has no motivation to fix the 
cabinets.

I offered the compromise that Draco didn't initiate this whole 
interaction, but that the cabinet did come up at the time of the 
kill_DD assignment. And it was *not* because I found Steve's idea 
that Draco thought he was just dipping in his toe and instead got 
pulled completely under, was implausible. It's just too hard to back 
up with canon, so I thought, what's the point? But in these last two 
posts, I've presented quite a bit of canon support for Voldemort 
knowing the cabinet plan from the beginning. You're turn to provide 
canon that refutes my canon. <g>

> Betsy Hp (who did enjoy herself, thank you <g>)

Mike, who hopefully made it harder this time <eg>

PS Betsy, even when your posts are arguing against me they still 
give me a chuckle, thanks :))