Teaching Styles / Sorting Hat

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 157966

> > Alla:
> > 
> > Well, IMO Snape did not try, because we don't see it on the 
page.<SNIP>
 > Shaun:
> 
> No, I'm not asking you to prove a double negative - rather I'd say 
I'm asking is that people 
> consider the possibility that just because it's not on the page, 
doesn't mean it didn't happen.

Alla:

Right and I am saying that by that means - **anything** that we would 
like to happen can be argued that it is just not on page and don't 
get me wrong, I certainly have no problems with it, since I believe 
that anything is a fair game in unfinished work, but unless I see a 
sign leading to this assumption in canon, I think that such argument 
is weak, that's all. I mean, since you argue below that you do see 
such signs, that is a different story. I just so don't see them and  
I only mean the signs that Snape tried to do something else with 
Neville before scaring him.


Shawn:
 I 
> think people should think about - "Would I *expect* to see any 
evidence of Snape having 
> helped Neville if he had been?" and if the answer to that is no, 
then why is its absence at all 
> surprising?
> 
> Now you may think you would see signs - and that's fine - if you 
think there would be signs of 
> this in the text, then their absence certainly is a reason for 
suspicion.

Alla:

Yes, exactly - to me **all** that I read in the text about Snape 
teaching of Neville is in direct contradiction to your assumption 
that he tried any other tactics, that is why the absense of the signs 
tells me that it never happened.

Shawn: 
> Personally, I would not expect to see major signs. We really don't 
see evidence of any of the 
> teachers at Hogwarts going out of their way to support individual 
students, which either 
> means they don't do it - in which case why are we picking on Snape? 
Or they do it and JKR 
> doesn't think it's a big enough deal to put it in the books.

Alla:

Huh? But with all other teachers we don't see Neville having them as 
a boggarts and being so scared and upset as he is at Snape's lessons. 
What I am trying to say is that the other lessons ( Mcgonagall is a 
different story) are not going in direct contradiction with the 
assumption that other teachers maybe helping him off screen so to 
speak, canon does not contradict it, IMO. And in case with Snape, it 
is just inconceivable for me to imagine that he does. Based on what I 
see him doing to Neville **on page**.

Actually, I think in case of Sprout we do see a rather strong hint 
that Neville has a relationship with her off screen. Isn't he 
planning to show her Mimmbletonia in OOP? I mean, it is not a direct 
support, but IMO can be interpreted as such.

In any event, as I said I can buy that **any** teacher tries to do 
something with Neville off page,except Snape.


Shawn: 
> But the fact is, I do see some minor signs of Snape helping 
Neville - I really do. The first 
> lesson:
> 
> "'Idiot boy!' snarled Snape, clearing the spilled potion away with 
one wave of his wand. 'I 
> suppose you added the porcupine quills before taking the cauldron 
off the fire?'"
> (PS, p103).
> 
> Yes, Snape calls him an idiot - he also tells him explicitly what 
he did wrong. If he just wants 
> to pick on the kid, he didn't need to do that. Telling a child 
exactly what they have done wrong 
> is good teaching. <snip> And with the Trevor incident, again, Snape 
gives Neville *explicit* details as to what he had 
> done wrong and gives him a chance to fix it. That's *good* 
teaching - it really is. 
<SNIP>


Alla:

You are arguing a different point though now IMO. We will agree to 
disagree on whether those tactics constitute good teaching. But I am 
asking you to support not the validity of those tactics, but the 
argument that Snape tried something **else** before resorting to them.


> Shaun:
> 
> It's not a matter of it being *nice*. Snape is NOT nice, not by any 
measure of the word. But he 
> doesn't have to be to be a good teacher. <SNIP>

Alla:

Yes, of course. I was trying to get across the argument that if you 
are arguing that Snape does those things off page, you can argue 
anything even such absurd thing (IMO of course) that Snape is being 
nice off page. Sorry for being unclear. 




> Shaun:
> 
> It doesn't need to be in the last book - I think it's there in the 
very first.
>.<SNIP of the Snape's speech on the first lesson>

Alla:

Yeah, the man loves potions - I get it from the speech, the man loves 
teaching - sorry, I don't. "If you are not the usual bunch of dunder 
heads" implies to me quite the opposite.

Shawn: 
> Also incidentally - I notice that in one of the very first 
statements she makes about him, JKR 
> *favourably* compares an aspect of Snapes teaching ability to that 
of McGonnagall - 
> 
> 'He spoke in barely more than a whisper, but they caught every 
word - like Professor 
> McGonagall, Snape had the gift of keeping a class silent without 
effort.'
> 
> If JKR is putting down what she thinks is important about Snape's 
teaching - that statement 
> to me is very telling. Praise right at the start. Before we see 
anything else.  

Alla:

Yeah, I know. I always bring up this quote to counter the idea that 
narrator  through Harry is prejudiced against the Snape from the 
beginning. He is ready to appreciate Snape teaching till Snape barks 
at him. I mean, there must be some good aspects in Snape teaching. At 
least he can keep class quiet, while mistreating some students 
horribly IMO.


 
> Shaun:
> 
> Scaring the kid into oblivion from the very first lesson?
> 
> He called him an idiot boy - not nice, but for an 11 year old boy 
sent off to boarding school, I 
> really can't see that that would figure highly in his fears. And if 
he is so sensitive as to be hurt 
> so badly by that, then:
> 
> "'Which person,' she said, her voice shaking, 'which abysmally 
foolish person wrote down this 
> week's passwords and left them lying around?'"
> 
> must have been truly and utterly devastating to his psyche.
> 
> Yet, McGonnagall doesn't seem to attract anywhere near the vitriol 
that Snape does.
> 
> If Snape was so cruel to Neville by calling him idiot boy - what 
does that say about 
> McGonnagall calling him an abysmally foolish person?
> 
> Frankly, in my view, both were deserved, considering what he'd 
done. But deserved or not, 
> we see  that was Snape does isn't unique to him as a teacher.


Alla:

Erm... sure she does attract that vitriol from me  and I absolutely 
remember from some other list members. Don't get me wrong, I love 
Mcgonagall dearly, on the overall scale of suiting to be a teacher I 
grade her much much higher than Snape ( those fifty points from each 
in PS/SS made me respect her a lot), but she IMO mistreated Neville 
badly on couple occasions.

But at least Mcgonagall learned and changed her approach IMO in OOP, 
and that makes me respect her too, that she does not hold on to her 
assumptions.

JMO,

Alla