DD at the Dursleys: Better Manner to Accept.

Sat Sep 9 02:41:43 UTC 2006

No: HPFGUIDX 158057

„«	Marion:
<SNIP>
> Why are the Dursleys so afraid of magic anyway?
>
> Fandom tells us that Nasty Petunia had a Saintly sister who was
just plain *better* than her. Cleverer. More beautyful. Magic. And
that Petunia, like the Evil Stepsister in a hundred fairytales, was
just plain *jealous* of her more talented sister.

Alla:

That's funny. I thought in the quote you briefly mention yourself
Petunia as much as tells us that she **was** jealous of Lily.

But here it is:

""Knew!" shrieked Aunt Petunia suddenly. "Knew! Of course we knew!
How could you not be, my dratted sister being what she was? Oh, she
got a letter just like that and disappeared off to that-that school-
and came home every vacation with her pockets full of frog spawn,
turning teacups into rats. I was the only one who saw her for what
she was¡Xa freak! But for my mother and father, oh no, it was Lily
this and Lily that, they were proud of having a witch in the family!"
She stopped to draw a deep breath and then went ranting on. It
seemed she had been wanting to say all this for years.
"Then she met that Potter at school and they left and got married
and had you, and of course I knew you'd be just the same, just as
strange, just as¡Xas¡Xabnormal¡Xand then, if you please, she went and
got herself blown up and we got landed with you!"" - PS/SS, chapter
4.

Alla:

I don't know - to me it **so** screams of jealousy, because her
parents were so proud to have witch in the family. IMO of course.

And of course Petunia already loved her so much that she called her
a freak. I wonder how much she really loved her.

Marion:
> Could be, of course. But Petunia herself tells us about 'turning
teacups into rats' as an example of magic her sister alledgedly
performed. But this could not have happed before Lily's seventeenth
year, since it is forbidden for underage students to perform magic
outside the school.

Alla:

That cannot happen, why? Isn't it possible that Lily performed magic
sometimes despite the prohibition, just as Harry did? I am also
wondering whether turning tea cups into rats ( I don't see anything
inherently wrong with it, but sounds like strange example to
remember) is an accurate example of the magic Lily did.

EDITED TO ADD:

Hehe. I knew I read it somewhere. Here we go from JKR website:
In "Philosopher's Stone" Aunt Petunia says that Lily came back from 
Hogwarts with frog spawn in her pockets and turned teacups into 
rats. If this is true, why wasn't Lily expelled?
Aunt Petunia is exaggerating a little; you have to allow for her 
state of mind when she started shrieking these things. However, just 
like her son, Lily was not averse to testing the limits of the 
Statute of Secrecy, so you can safely assume she will have had a few 
warning letters ¡V nothing too serious, though.

Marion:
But by the time Lily was seventeen, she had also hooked up with
James. Around this time, Petunia met and fell in love with Vernon,
on can assume (Dudley was born in the same year as Harry, so Petunia
can't be very much younger or older than Lily. A few years perhaps)
> James was a notorious prankster and he had three friends who were
also notorious pranksters.
> I'll lay money on James and Sirius tagteaming in hexing Petunia
and Vernon for fun and games. Hey, it was just *fun* you know. And
they were *Muggles*. Oh yes, Lily probably 'defended' her sister
just as she 'defended' Severus Snape, i.e. not at all (that Pensieve
scene was so much about James going 'hey, notice me, the Bad Boy'
and Lily going 'Ooooh.. you're just so *giggle* nasty!' it's no
wonder it infuriated Snape. To be hated and persecuted is one thing.
To be used as a prop in a courting ritual is quite another)

Alla:

Well, could be as you say - any outlandish speculation is a fair
game in the unfinished work, but as you seem to agree Lily hooked up
with James when they were seventeen and canon as much as says it,
but frankly I doubt very much that James and his friends had
plausible canon time to show up in the house and torment Petunia and
Vernon, especially torment them so much as to make them fear magic
horribly.

Petunia says as much - she met Potter, they left and got married. I
wonder when James had time to do that, especially often. During
Christmas break ( if Lily even went home) and summer vacation? I
strongly suspect that Lily married very soon after graduation and
left and never came back. Hey, just speculating here too :)

But at least we know that canon timeline is very tight. And after
school Lily and James had to be able to do lots of things before
they died. Where constant hexing of Petunia and Vernon fits in, I am
not even sure at all and we **know* that Lily did not have much
relationship with her sister after she got married, no?

As to Lily never defending Snape. I seem to remember that she was
doing pretty good defending him and stopped only when he called her
that word "mudblood".

But as long as we are speculating, I'd like to offer another one. :)

JKR as much as said that **awful boy** name would be important and I
am not sure how it will be important if it is James, so if it is
indeed turns out to be Snape, it seems to me that he may have spent
more time at Lily's house than James ever managed. Speculating here
of course, and we don't even need to go into LOLLIPOPS here, just
friendship may do.

So, maybe that awful boy also added to Petunia's fear of magic? I
wonder.

Marion:
> Dumbledore *used* the Dursleys. He forced them to take Harry
("Remember my last, Petunia!"), gave them *no* support or help
whatsoever.

Alla:

Any definite canon for Dumbledore **forcing** them to take Harry by
any chance? I mean **remember my last** can be just as easily
interpreted as Dumbledore offering Petunia something for taking
Harry in? As in, I don't know, maybe protection for her family and
her?

And that may tight in with Rebecca's wonderful speculation
that "more than meets the eye to Petunia" can mean that Petunia was
disguised, specifically her eyes, which may turn out to be same as
Lily's and Harry?

> bboyminn:
> <SNIP>
> I find your assertion that Dumbledore is an uninvited
> stranger at their door in the middle of the night to be
> wrong. That /is/ who Dumbledore is for about 5 or 10
> seconds, then it becomes clear who he is and why he is
> there, and that he indeed does have legitimate business
> there.

Alla:

I am not inclined to argue over this much. Sorry. Especially when we
seem to agree in evaluation of this scene in general. The fact
remains though that Dursleys did not invite him to show up - that
translates into *uninvited** for me.

bboyminn:
> At that point, I feel the Dursley's were socially
> obligated to offer Dumbledore AT LEAST the minimum of
> terse business-like get-to-the-point-and-be-gone courtesy.
> And, that seems to be all Dumbledore expected, yet, even
> that raw minimal basic level of courtesy was not extended.

Alla:

I am not disputing that it would have been **nice** of them, I am
only disagreeing with **owed**, you know. :)

bboyminn:
> Further, I do not buy the argument of others that the
> Dursleys are so horribly frightened of Magic. Certainly,
> they are /worried/ about it, and dread anyone finding out
> they are associated with it, but I don't see it bordering
> on paranoid delusions.

Alla:

Oh, they are frightened all right,IMO, although just as you are, I
am not buying the extent of it, but their fright does not make those
people to me even remotely sympathetic. I see magic not as a
metaphor for **elite class**, but as metaphor for those different
from usual people and the ability to accept somebody who is
different, somebody who is not like you, the ability to accept such
person without calling them a freak, seems like very important to me.

bboyminn:
> Again, I think the scene only re-enforces my view of just
> how socially sub-human and clueless the Dursley are. For
> all their pretense of social sophistication and propriety,
> they fall woefully short of the mark.
>

Alla:

Indeed.

JMO,

Alla