Petunia and Lily (was why do people dislike this scene)

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 158105

> Alla:
<snip>
> Yes, that would have been nice, but but isn't it the problem of
> Statute of secrecy again? Doesn't WW try to keep the contacts to 
the
> minimum?
> 
> Ceridwen:
> It can't help the Statute of Secrecy when a magical child is loose 
in 
> the Muggle world turning hair green or hanging rabbits.  People 
will 
> notice.  Witches and wizards are not supposed to do magic 
around/in 
> front of Muggles, yet here these children are, unchecked and 
> untrained, leaping to schoolhouse roofs.  This seems like a huge 
hole 
> in the Statutes of Secrecy which needs to be dealt with, I think.
<SNIP>


Alla:

Heeee, you don't have to convince me - go argue your case in front 
of Wizengamot. ;)



> Alla:
> > Petunia driven by fear would still be the same Petunia who tried 
to
> hit Harry with the pan, she still be the same Petunia who did not
> protest when Harry was locked in the room with bars and starved.
> 
> Ceridwen:
> But, would she?  If this is all that is driving her, then yes, 
> perhaps she would be.  But what if it is fear, plus secrecy, plus 
> stress, plus?  This is something we can't know (JKR could, but 
again, 
> something that probably will not be addressed).

Alla:

I was not arguing that if all motivations that Petunia is driven of, 
including fear if it is there, whether we are aware of them or not, 
will be removed, that Petunia would not be acting differently. She 
may be or she may not, I don't know it.

I was trying to say that by evaluating her past actions, her 
motivations do not really matter to me - her **actions** are still 
horrible IMO.

I mean, no, her motivations do matter to get a complete picture of 
her as human being and maybe, maybe for me to feel **some** pity for 
her ( and telling you, JKR has to try **really** hard to elicit ity 
for Petunia from me), they do not matter to me in making her actions 
towards Harry better.


 
> Ceridwen:
<SNIP>
> It doesn't hurt - no, it doesn't *harm* Harry - to be yelled at on 
> occasion.  The child I mentioned, who ran out into the street, is 
> probably frightened by the parent's yelling, its heart racing, 
blood 
> pounding through its veins, shaking, maybe even pale.  But that 
child 
> will remember its own fear and associate it with the act of 
rushing 
> into a street.  Fear is a survival response.  It helps keep us 
safe.

Alla:

Yes, but I don't remember **one** incident from the book where Harry 
**needed** to be yelled at. My memory sure isn't perfect as I 
discovered just today again and I could forget it, but so far I only 
remember Dursleys budgering Harry for something he did not deserve 
to be yelled at.


> 
> Alla:
> > Yes, when child does something dangerous, one yells if necessary 
to
> stop it, but would still show child that he is loved, no?
> 
> Ceridwen:
> In most of my experiences, the parent yells during and after.  The 
> parent is terrified, shaken up, with the same physical reactions I 
> mentioned for the child above.  It is a terrifying thing to see 
your 
> child running out into a street.

Alla:

Yes, of course, but as I said, I fail to remember one incident when 
Harry deserved to be yelled at by Dursleys. Sorry, I find Petunia's 
actions to be sort of unforgivable without getting her hidden 
motivations, if such motibations exist at all. If they do exist, as 
I said I may feel some pity for her, but not right now.

Because even the argument that she indeed loved Lily ( which as I 
said I find very plausible) is not IMO very supported by the text. 
We may learn about it, but so far I did not.

Yes, she took Harry in, but I do wonder if the things turned out to 
be better for Harry if she refused to do so and Dumbledore would 
have been forced to look for another option for Harry.

Yes, yes I know that we would have had no story then, but I am with 
LL on this one - it is really really hard to suspend disbelieve that 
Dumbledore could not have found another option.

Yes, I know all about blood protection, but the fact is that we 
still did not see any attack on Privet Drive, where such protection 
will work, so I cannot keep but wondering, whether this was indeed 
the drastic measure of last resort.

At the same time, protection seems to be work outside Privet Drive 
too ( Ps/SS, GoF), so I cannot keep but wondering was it indeed 
necessary to stuck Harry there.  You know?





  > Ceridwen:
<SNIP>
> Interesting thought: could Lily have defended Petunia to her 
parents 
> ('She's special too!') and gotten Petunia's undying contempt?  If 
> someone always rushes to the rescue, it can begin to rub the wrong 
> way, especially when the person being defended feels inadequate 
(am I 
> sorry enough to need defending?) or when the words of defense have 
a 
> hollow ring (Lily's a witch; *how* is Petunia special compared to 
> that?).  This defense can come across as condescending to the 
person 
> being defended.


Alla:

Poor Lily then - she is damned when she does and damned when she 
does not.( by Petunia). Mmmm, reminds me of Pensieve scene then.


> 
> Alla:
> *(snip)*
> > I am not sure how much danger Dudley is in because of Harry, 
> although I guess Dementor visit should count as such...
> 
> Ceridwen:
> Harry's parents, who were able to use magic, were killed because 
LV 
> wanted to kill Harry.
<snip.

Alla: I wonder does Petunia is aware of Prophecy. I am not sure, so 
would she even know that Potters were killed because LV was after 
Harry specifically? 

Ceridwen:
<SNIPS examples of danger for Dudley>
 > There is a blood protection, but it is due to run out within two 
> months of the close of HBP.  Many of us are expecting some sort of 
> attack the minute such an attack can be mounted, and there is 
Harry 
> at the Dursleys' house.  Petunia was shaken when she realized 
this.  
> I think she does know enough about the WW and the dangers Lily and 
> James faced, to be rightfully afraid.  But again, we don't know 
> exactly what Petunia knows.


Alla:

I speculate that pact between Dumbledore and Petunia included 
additional protection for her family too. I think that Petunia got 
**something** out of Harry staying with them and whether this will 
run out too when Harry is out of there, I am not sure, if this 
speculation is correct.

And yeah, attack could have happened. I speculate Harry defending 
his **family**. I wonder if we will hear **thank you** from Petunia.

Am doubting it.


JMO,

Alla, who despises all Dursleys, in case you did not realise that 
yet :)