DD at the Dursleys: Why do people dislike the scene?

[snow15145]

No: HPFGUIDX 158110



Snow (me) previously:
Dumbledore was stuck with his decision and Harry's mistreatment. How 
can you 
possibly deny Dumbledore a few subtle, reminders on this
visit, as to their continued rude behavior?

Magpie:
I don't deny it to him (or suggest he ought to be shot for being rude 
*looks 
at other part of thread*). I just said I don't enjoy watching him do 
it, 
and it makes me think less of him. I do agree with you that one's 
feelings 
about a scene are often less than important, but in this case they 
are what 
I was asked about. I don't think you can argue somebody out of their 
emotional reaction to a scene. I understand other people have 
different 
reactions and they just have to understand mine are different from 
theirs.

Snow:

See that doesn't make any sense to me.  You don't deny Dumbledore to 
do what he did but you don't like watching it happen. 

Snow (me) previously:

These people or muggles don't even have the understanding that they 
have 
done anything wrong in their eyes. Dumbledore was attempting to show 
them 
that their abusive behavior has not ceased to exist and they still do 
not 
recognize to what extent it remains to be so when he refers to 
Dudders.

Magpie:
That's another way the scene comes across differently to me. I read 
that 
and just think, Didn't do much of a good job of showing them anything 
then. 
He shows up, throws his weight around, does some scolding, says he 
wants 
Harry to stay there a while longer and makes a reference to the way 
they 
treat Dudley that confuses them all and then leaves. They're no more 
different when he leaves than they were when they showed up--which 
perhaps 
taps into another reason I don't enjoy these kinds of scenes with the 
Dursleys, because their staying the same always seems to be important 
to the 
scene. They're intentionally written as unchanging this way.

Snow:

Do you think that the Dursley's will get what Dumbledore says at all 
in the near future, like when Harry's protection is lifted and 
reality sets in? 

I think that Dumbledore was being quite subtle in this scene for a 
reason; the Dursley's wouldn't accept a direct approach of what they 
had done and still do. One day, very soon, the Dursley's will be 
reminded when they may have to rely on Harry's mercy to save their 
butts. 

Magpie:
But I'm certainly not disagreeing that this is what Dumbledore is 
probably 
doing in the scene in his eyes. I already see it the same way you do, 
so 
explaining it to me isn't going to make me like the scene any better. 
I 
think Dumbledore's a far better teacher and a far better everything 
else in 
the Tower. That scene, imo, was Dumbledore at his best. This scene 
was 
very off for me in reading it and I was glad to leave the Dursleys 
behind.

Snow:

Although the circumstances are the same the person's Dumbledore is 
speaking to in each scene are different. The Dursley's are muggles 
who refuse to see or accept their faults as parents whereas the 
Deatheaters are cruel and not only realize it they embrace it. 

The scene with the Deatheaters is a full confrontation with both 
parties replying. The Dursley's on the other hand stood there 
dumbfounded as to what the hell this old man is talking about. 

Snow (me) previously:

As I have said, you are certainly entitled to apply your own emotions 
to any 
scene in any of the books.

My point was that in doing so you may misinterpret the meaning of the 
given 
scene that was intended by the author because of your own emotions.

Magpie:
Er...that sounds like it's somehow twisted what I said. There seems 
to be 
no question of my misinterpreting anything in the scene, since we 
both agree 
on what is going on in it. I don't think I've misinterpreted the 
author's 
intention either. In the case of this particular scene I don't think 
my 
emotional reaction was what the author was going for--we obviously 
have 
different tastes on this kind of humor and I accepted that books ago! 
My 
having a different emotional reaction to what she intended doesn't 
make me 
or her wrong necessarily. An author can't dictate the emotional 
reaction of 
a reader. Obviously I'm not her ideal reader for this scene, and she 
didn't 
write it in a way that was going to get around my emotional 
resistance.

The reason I am talking about my emotions in this scene is because 
that's 
specifically what I was asked about. I see exactly the same facts in 
the 
scene as everyone else, I suspect the author's emotional reaction to 
the 
scene is different from my own, and yet this is my reaction to it.

Snow:

I don't think the author is dictating what we should feel but I do 
think that if we don't attempt to follow her meaning the way she 
feels about the scene we may be missing the bigger point. 

I think everything that Dumbledore did and said went flying over the 
Dursley's heads, so the confrontation between them was lacking. It 
was more of a one-sided account because the Dursley's were clueless 
as to what they had done or did so the scene was lacking the come 
back replies that would have escalated the conversation to a 
conclusion. 

This is where I think that this scene could not have been concluded 
in a dramatic sense because the Dursley's aren't ready for that final 
conclusion yet, there's more to come and I think they will finally 
get something out of what Dumbledore was attempting to say. 

Snow (me) previously:

I feel that, everyone, whether they realize it or not bases their 
opinions 
from their own point of view based on their emotions and mental 
awareness of 
their past experiences. People sometimes can't help but to become 
connected 
with a particular scene because it may trigger a part of their own 
experience.

Magpie:
Absolutely. That's what I'm referring to in describing why I don't 
like 
what DD is doing--if pressed I could probably come up with negative 
memories 
it reminded me of. Plus there's the Muggle thing talked about 
elsewhere, 
just a lot of things. Similarly there are other scenes that don't 
bother me 
or I find funny that other people are enraged by. JKR's books kind of 
lend 
themselves to that, imo. For all the talk I sometimes hear in fandom 
about 
how we're supposed to react to scenes and who we're supposed to like, 
she 
actually seems really good at creating ambiguous scenes tailor made 
for 
controversy when you get more than one person reading them.

Snow (me) previously:
This is exactly where I attempt to become objective to the point of 
excluding my own emotions so I don't cloud my vision of the actual 
events 
that are going on.

Magpie:
I think we're both doing a pretty good job about being objective 
about the 
facts of the scene. At least I haven't been aware of any differences 
in 
what we think is happening. It's not like you think Dumbledore comes 
to the 
house to bring the Dursleys a present and I think he's come to poison 
them. 
One of the things the books do really well, imo, is have different 
people 
respond to things differently. James Potter: Great guy or total berk? 
Sirius thinks the first, Snape thinks the second, and neither of them 
is 
just wrong.

Snow:
Except that I think that the scene is telling and I can appreciate it 
even though I personally would have chosen to ream, steam and dry-
clean the Dursley's. 

So, yeah we may be objective of the facts of the scene in the same 
way but the end result is different since you don't care for the 
scene and I do because I think there is more there than we can 
readily recognize.
 
Snow (me) previously:
I believe I have already answered this but then again there's that 
whole 
Internet in-clarity I spoke of at the beginning of this post. I will 
answer 
again, since you asked twice what I didn't like.I will reluctantly 
elaborate 
but it has no bearing on the story.

Magpie:
Just to be clear, I know it has no bearing on the story. I didn't 
answer 
the thread right away because it was a thread about our different 
emotional 
reactions, which is subjective, to a scene and not something that was 
more 
objective, like what happens in the scene.

Snow:
All things are connected though, which was my point, that if you read 
something with what you would have done or wanted to happen because 
of your own emotions, then your expectations can change the story and 
its meaning from what the author meant or has yet to mean. 

This is why I said that I attempt to disregard my own emotions as 
what I would have done or would like for Dumbledore to have done so I 
can understand what the author is saying and where she may be going 
by the way she has Dumbledore interact with the Dursley's. 

I actually liked the scene quite fine for its subtlety; it should 
make the Dursley's think, at the very least, what the hell the old 
guy just said
given time.  

Snow (me) previously:

I am not Holier-than-though and would have to protect a child to the 
nth 
degree, so given the logistics that Dumbledore could not totally 
prevent 
Harry's abuse (as I see it) once his initial decision had been 
invoked, I 
would have been more than severe (in this scene) when I finally had 
my final 
conversation with the very persons who I entrusted to care for Harry.

In short, Dumbledore didn't do enough convincing in this last scene 
to make 
me proud But (discounting my person emotions) I can also appreciate 
that 
Dumbledore is a Holier-than-though-type-of-person and could not stoop 
to the 
level I would have gone less he become as abusive as the Dursley's 
themselves. (you can't teach a child not to hit by hitting them)

Magpie:
Just to be clear, when you say a "holier than thou" person you mean 
that 
sincerely? Like, you're saying that Dumbledore actually is more saint-
like 
or forgiving rather than the way the phrase is usually used? Because 
calling someone holier than thou usually means you're calling them 
hypocritically pious or sanctimonious and it doesn't seem like you're 
accusing Dumbledore of that.

Snow:

I meant it in the way that you took it, Dumbledore will not allow 
himself to go to the lengths that the Dursley's do by being as cruel 
as they were and still are. 

Magpie:

Your own emotional response to the scene doesn't change the facts of 
it, I 
agree, and nor does mine, but it does seem to explain why we'd be 
moved to 
speak up, doesn't it? I mean, I don't like what Dumbledore's doing 
because 
I think it's beneath him and you would have prefered to see a little 
more of 
it. So while we both agree about what's going on in the scene our 
different 
reactions can easily feel like they can't co-exist with each other.

Snow:

I mustn't be making a clear point because I did like the scene from 
the viewpoint that Dumbledore's hands are metaphorically tied from 
what he could have done to the Dursley's or what he may have wanted 
to do. 

Dealing with the Dursley's any harsher than he had done would have 
only made him more of a monster in their eyes, it would not allow the 
Dursley's to recognize what they had done to Harry or their own son. 

I have taken my emotions out of the reading so what I would like or 
expect does not undermine the true essence of this scene. When I did 
that I was able to appreciate the scene, therefore better understand 
the scene and like the scene as a result. 

Snow (me) previously:

If (big if) this scene irritated me at all that would be why but then 
it's 
not my story and I do accept and appreciate what I previously have 
said that 
Dumbledore would be stooping to the Dursley's
stupidity and ignorance if he had done any more than what he did.

Magpie:
Sure--I accept the scene too. And I appreciate that Dumbledore's 
supposed 
to be showing anger here over the mistreatment of a child. It's just 
never 
going to be a favorite of mine to read.

Snow:

It could be that there was no total resolve with this scene, because 
the Dursley's didn't get their comeuppance, that may have caused 
people to dislike it but, as I said somewhere in this response, I 
don't think the whole matter has come to a full head yet, when it 
finally does, I think this whole scene will become more clear for a 
lot of people.