[HPforGrownups] Re: DD at the Dursleys: Why do people dislike the scene?

[Magpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 158055

Snow:
Dumbledore was stuck with his decision and Harry's mistreatment. How can you 
possibly deny Dumbledore a few subtle, reminders on this
visit, as to their continued rude behavior?

Magpie:
I don't deny it to him (or suggest he ought to be shot for being rude *looks 
at other part of thread*).  I just said I don't enjoy watching him do it, 
and it makes me think less of him.  I do agree with you that one's feelings 
about a scene are often less than important, but in this case they are what 
I was asked about.  I don't think you can argue somebody out of their 
emotional reaction to a scene.  I understand other people have different 
reactions and they just have to understand mine are different from theirs.

Snow:
These people or muggles don't even have the understanding that they have 
done anything wrong in their eyes. Dumbledore was attempting to show them 
that their abusive behavior has not ceased to exist and they still do not 
recognize to what extent it remains to be so when he refers to Dudders.

Magpie:
That's another way the scene comes across differently to me.  I read that 
and just think, Didn't do much of a good job of showing them anything then. 
He shows up, throws his weight around, does some scolding, says he wants 
Harry to stay there a while longer and makes a reference to the way they 
treat Dudley that confuses them all and then leaves. They're no more 
different when he leaves than they were when they showed up--which perhaps 
taps into another reason I don't enjoy these kinds of scenes with the 
Dursleys, because their staying the same always seems to be important to the 
scene. They're intentionally written as unchanging this way.

But I'm certainly not disagreeing that this is what Dumbledore is probably 
doing in the scene in his eyes.  I already see it the same way you do, so 
explaining it to me isn't going to make me like the scene any better. I 
think Dumbledore's a far better teacher and a far better everything else in 
the Tower.  That scene, imo, was Dumbledore at his best.  This scene was 
very off for me in reading it and I was glad to leave the Dursleys behind.

Snow:

As I have said, you are certainly entitled to apply your own emotions to any 
scene in any of the books.

My point was that in doing so you may misinterpret the meaning of the given 
scene that was intended by the author because of your own emotions.

Magpie:
Er...that sounds like it's somehow twisted what I said.  There seems to be 
no question of my misinterpreting anything in the scene, since we both agree 
on what is going on in it.  I don't think I've misinterpreted the author's 
intention either.  In the case of this particular scene I don't think my 
emotional reaction was what the author was going for--we obviously have 
different tastes on this kind of humor and I accepted that books ago!  My 
having a different emotional reaction to what she intended doesn't make me 
or her wrong necessarily.  An author can't dictate the emotional reaction of 
a reader.  Obviously I'm not her ideal reader for this scene, and she didn't 
write it in a way that was going to get around my emotional resistance.

The reason I am talking about my emotions in this scene is because that's 
specifically what I was asked about. I see exactly the same facts in the 
scene as everyone else, I suspect the author's emotional reaction to the 
scene is different from my own, and yet this is my reaction to it.

Snow:
I feel that, everyone, whether they realize it or not bases their opinions 
from their own point of view based on their emotions and mental awareness of 
their past experiences. People sometimes can't help but to become connected 
with a particular scene because it may trigger a part of their own 
experience.

Magpie:
Absolutely.  That's what I'm referring to in describing why I don't like 
what DD is doing--if pressed I could probably come up with negative memories 
it reminded me of. Plus there's the Muggle thing talked about elsewhere, 
just a lot of things.  Similarly there are other scenes that don't bother me 
or I find funny that other people are enraged by.  JKR's books kind of lend 
themselves to that, imo.  For all the talk I sometimes hear in fandom about 
how we're supposed to react to scenes and who we're supposed to like, she 
actually seems really good at creating ambiguous scenes tailor made for 
controversy when you get more than one person reading them.

Snow:
This is exactly where I attempt to become objective to the point of 
excluding my own emotions so I don't cloud my vision of the actual events 
that are going on.

Magpie:
I think we're both doing a pretty good job about being objective about the 
facts of the scene.  At least I haven't been aware of any differences in 
what we think is happening.  It's not like you think Dumbledore comes to the 
house to bring the Dursleys a present and I think he's come to poison them. 
One of the things the books do really well, imo, is have different people 
respond to things differently.  James Potter: Great guy or total berk? 
Sirius thinks the first, Snape thinks the second, and neither of them is 
just wrong.

Snow:
I believe I have already answered this but then again there's that whole 
Internet in-clarity I spoke of at the beginning of this post. I will answer 
again, since you asked twice what I didn't like.I will reluctantly elaborate 
but it has no bearing on the story.

Magpie:
Just to be clear, I know it has no bearing on the story.  I didn't answer 
the thread right away because it was a thread about our different emotional 
reactions, which is subjective, to a scene and not something that was more 
objective, like what happens in the scene.

Snow:
I am not Holier-than-though and would have to protect a child to the nth 
degree, so given the logistics that Dumbledore could not totally prevent 
Harry's abuse (as I see it) once his initial decision had been invoked, I 
would have been more than severe (in this scene) when I finally had my final 
conversation with the very persons who I entrusted to care for Harry.

In short, Dumbledore didn't do enough convincing in this last scene to make 
me proud But (discounting my person emotions) I can also appreciate that 
Dumbledore is a Holier-than-though-type-of-person and could not stoop to the 
level I would have gone less he become as abusive as the Dursley's 
themselves. (you can't teach a child not to hit by hitting them)

Magpie:
Just to be clear, when you say a "holier than thou" person you mean that 
sincerely?  Like, you're saying that Dumbledore actually is more saint-like 
or forgiving rather than the way the phrase is usually used?  Because 
calling someone holier than thou usually means you're calling them 
hypocritically pious or sanctimonious and it doesn't seem like you're 
accusing Dumbledore of that.

Your own emotional response to the scene doesn't change the facts of it, I 
agree, and nor does mine, but it does seem to explain why we'd be moved to 
speak up, doesn't it?  I mean, I don't like what Dumbledore's doing because 
I think it's beneath him and you would have prefered to see a little more of 
it.  So while we both agree about what's going on in the scene our different 
reactions can easily feel like they can't co-exist with each other.

Snow:

If (big if) this scene irritated me at all that would be why but then it's 
not my story and I do accept and appreciate what I previously have said that 
Dumbledore would be stooping to the Dursley's
stupidity and ignorance if he had done any more than what he did.

Magpie:
Sure--I accept the scene too.  And I appreciate that Dumbledore's supposed 
to be showing anger here over the mistreatment of a child.  It's just never 
going to be a favorite of mine to read.

Alla:

That's funny. I thought in the quote you briefly mention yourself Petunia as 
much as tells us that she **was** jealous of Lily.

But here it is:


""Knew!" shrieked Aunt Petunia suddenly. "Knew! Of course we knew! How could 
you not be, my dratted sister being what she was? Oh, she got a letter just 
like that and disappeared off to that-that school-
and came home every vacation with her pockets full of frog spawn, turning 
teacups into rats. I was the only one who saw her for what she was-a freak! 
But for my mother and father, oh no, it was Lily this and Lily that, they 
were proud of having a witch in the family!"
She stopped to draw a deep breath and then went ranting on. It seemed she 
had been wanting to say all this for years."Then she met that Potter at 
school and they left and got married and had you, and of course I knew you'd 
be just the same, just as strange, just as-as-abnormal-and then, if you 
please, she went and
got herself blown up and we got landed with you!"" - PS/SS, chapter 4.

Alla:

I don't know - to me it **so** screams of jealousy, because her parents were 
so proud to have witch in the family. IMO of course.

And of course Petunia already loved her so much that she called her a freak. 
I wonder how much she really loved her.

Magpie:
I wrote an essay on this once.:-)  Basically, the way I see Petunia--and 
this is a lot to do with one small way in which I identify with her--I think 
she did love Lily, yes.  That is, they had a normal, if imperfect, sister 
relationship until Hogwarts.  A lot of my imaginings about those early years 
are obviously not canon at all, so they can't be taken as proof of anything, 
but I much prefer seeing Petunia as a real person who had real hurt over 
this issue instead of just the wicked stepsister who was ugly and didn't 
have magic powers and was always jealous and hated perfect Lily.  Not 
because it makes Petunia's behavior towards Harry any better, but it's more 
realistic to me.  Also--and I think JKR illustrates this well in canon a 
lot--real hurt breeds deeper bitterness and so more cruelty.  She was 
jealous, I think, but to me it's not just in a superficial way.

Granted my view of Petunia does slot in consistently to the way I see the 
two worlds in general and all that, but it makes me like Petunia as a 
character more, so I'm happy with it.:-)

-m