Thoughts on the Fidelius

[Steve]

No: HPFGUIDX 158350

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jordan Abel" <random832 at ...> wrote:
>
> > bboyminn:
> >
> > ... it does bring up one the biggest unresolved 
> > mysteries in the series. Exactly what, in terms of 
> > phrasing, was the 'Secret'. Once again I point out 
> > the note Dumbledore gave Harry. I post it again to 
> > refresh your memory -
> >
> > "The Headquarters of the Order of the Phoenix may be
> > found at number twelve, Grimmauld Place, London."
> >
> > Is seems that the 'secret' is /not/ 12 Grimmauld 
> > Place, but 'Headquarters of the Order'. Twelve 
> > Grimmauld Place is only relevant because it is the 
> > /current/ location of 'headquarters'. I suspect, if 
> > 'headquarters' moves, as it did, the secret moves 
> > with it.
> 
> Random832:
> I disagree. I think the whole sentence is the secret. 
> If the HQ moves, the Fidelius will have to be recast. 
> The point here, I believe, and the reason that the 
> house is "disappeared", is because of the exact wording
> - the headquarters _may not be found_ at that location 
> by anyone who has not been told the secret...
> 

bboyminn:

I can't believe I'm going to pick nits to such a degree,
but none the less, here I go.

In the verbal equation -

"The Headquarters of the Order of the Phoenix may be
found at number twelve, Grimmauld Place, London."

Headquarters is a constant.
Grimmauld Place, unlikely as it seems, is a variable. 

All the following statements could be valid -

'The Headquarters...may be found at The Burrow.'
'The Headquarters...may be found at Moody's house.'
'The Headquarters...may be found at Mrs. Figgs house.'

It is clear, that 'headquarters' is what is being hidden,
it is incidental that it's current location at 12
Grimmauld Place is also hidden in the process. Twelve
Grimmauld Place is a by-product of hiding the 
'headquarters'.

The point of analysing this is because how the Potters 
Secret is verbally constructed affects how the story,
on page and off page, plays out.


> Random832: 
>
> I think the problem is that because this is the only
> demonstration we have of the Fidelius, fanon has 
> latched on the most "obvious" interpretation - that 
> fidelius _necessarily_ applies to a piece of land and 
> everything on it. Fanfics have detailed descriptions 
> ..., none of which is at all evident in the books
> themselves, because that's how people "want" magic to 
> work. ...
> 

bboyminn:

Oh no denying that fanfiction can get pretty far out 
there. But, in fanfiction, you do have to speculate a 
likely scenario. We don't know the details of the 
Fidelius Charm, so we have to make them up, but we have
to make them up reasonable within the likelihood and 
consistent with the world they occur in.

> ...edited...
> 
> bboyminn:
> > Lastly, there are endless complications with the 
> > Charm actually being on the Potters and not the 
> > location. First, the Secret Keeper is still alive, 
> > so the secret /should/ still be intact,
> 
> Random832:
> But the Potters are no longer in hiding. The idea that
> there must be a person/place/thing that is the 
> "subject" of the fidelius charm strikes me as being 
> nearly as wrongheaded as the idea that it must be a 
> place.
> 

bboyminn:

Just out of curiousity, can you give us an example of
an abstract, not person/place/thing, secret? I think you
will find it harder that you might have guessed.

The point I was intending to make is the very point you
make later in this post, and I will address it there.


> bboyminn:
> > Peter doesn't know where Harry is and he likely
> > doesn't know where Lily and James' graves are.

> Random832:
> 
> Sure he does. Everyone knows where Harry is (whenever 
> he's at either 4PD or Hogwarts, anyway, and I assume 
> 4PD is what you meant).
> 
> Who's to say he didn't attend their funeral as Percy's
> rat? But all this is irrelevant, so anyway.
> 

bboyminn:

He knows generally where Harry might be, but he doesn't 
know specifically where Harry is at any given minute. He
may suspect that since it is summer holiday, that Harry 
is probably at 4 Privet Drive, but he can't know if 
Harry is walking around the neighborhood, visiting Mrs.
Figg, off to the corner store, off on an adventure 
with Dumbledore, or he may have been spirited away to 
Grimmauld Place, or he may be off at the Burrow or 
visiting Diagon Alley.

Given the Danger that Peter apparently preceived, it is 
unlikely he is hanging around the Potter funeral. For 
that matter, if the Potter were the secret, how could 
they even find them to bury them. Of course, you and 
I have the perfect solution to that.

The central point is that if the secret was the Potters
(or if it was there house) and the Fidelius Charm is 
still in effect, then things are impossibly complicated.

> Random832:
>
> In conclusion, _my_ opinion is that the secret ceased 
> to be relevant after the attack, and the secret of 12GP
> will cease to be relevant if and when the Order moves 
> or disbands. ...

bboyminn:

Exactly! And that is the very point I was trying to make.
If the Secret is not broken and was placed on the Potters
then the plot remains nearly unresolvable. If the Secret
was on the house and remains unbroken then the plot is
still nearly unresolvable and unexplainable. 

However, if for whatever reason, the Secret has /ceased 
to be relevant/. Whether by breach of fidelity, or 
dissolution of the secret, or by whatever means, then 
things are much simpler and the existing plot as we know 
it can easily be explain and any inconsistencies resolved.

So, we are pretty much in agreement. I know I generally
agree with all the parts I snipped from your post.

Steve/bboyminn