Thoughts on the Fidelius

[justcarol67]

No: HPFGUIDX 158433

Mike wrote:
> <snip> The secret has to be *proprietary*. You can't just call any
place you want your 'secret' residence. DD can't walk up to Lucius
Malfoy's mansion and invoke a Fidelius Charm saying that this house is
the secret HQ of the Order of the Pigeons, thereby stopping the
Malfoy's from finding their own house. DD doesn't have propriety over
Lucius' house. It's the same for 12GP. Sirius, as the owner of the
house, has to give his permission to make the house the HQ for the
OotP and to be part of the 'secret'. 
<snip>
> . . . I view the 'secret' as no longer *true* once the Potters are
no longer hiding (Lily and James dead, Harry removed). 
> But, I further hypothesized the the Fidelius was cast as a "we are 
hiding from someone" charm. This would allow Flitwick's presentation 
to still apply to the Potters scenario and would make sense of the 
aftermath. If LV was told the 'secret' then the Fidelius is broken, 
anybody can find the Potters now. It doesn't matter that Peter, the 
SK, is still around, the Fidelius was already broken. <snip>

Carol responds:
I disagree that the secret has to be "proprietary." I think it simply
has to be a legitimate secret. "Malfoy manor is the headquarters of
the Pigeons" is not a real secret and would not work to conceal Malfoy
manor from its owners, and "the Potters are hiding from Lord
Voldemort" is not a secret. Everyone in the Order and most of the
Death Eaters already knew it, not to mention Voldemort himself. the
secret has to be something along the lines of "The Potters are hiding
at [specific address], Godric's Hollow." The house might still be
visible since it didn't have the additional protections on it that Mr.
Black had placed on 12 GP, but no one who hadn't been told the secret
could see the Potters living there, as Flitwick indicates--and as the
Charms teacher, he would certainly know how the charm works. I don't
think that the Potters could come and go freely. I think that someone
else, say Peter Pettigrew or Sirius Black, had to bring them food. Or
maybe Dumbledore provided the house, stocked with food and whatever
else they would need, in which case he "forgot" the location of his
own house when Pettigrew became the Secret Keeper and neglected to
tell him the secret. (I still don't think DD knew the secret until the
charm was broken, as explained below.) If James couldn't leave the
house (or yard) without breaking the charm (if he leaves, he's no
longer hiding there, right?), he wouldn't need the Invisibility Cloak,
so why not give it to DD either for the Order members' use or to hold
on to until James and Lily could come out of hiding?

I agree that the Fidelius Charm (note its name: fidelis -e [trusty ,
steadfast, faithful]; m. as subst., esp. pl., [confidants, faithful
friends]. Adv. fideliter, [faithfully; securely, without danger]. 
fidelitas -atis f. [faithfulness , trust, fidelity]
http://catholic.archives.nd.edu/cgi-bin/lookup.pl?stem=fidel&ending= )
may well have been broken the moment that Pettigrew told Voldemort the
secret and was certainly broken when the house was destroyed and the
Potters, two of them dead, were no longer hiding there because the
secret itself no longer existed. "The Potters are hiding in [address]
Godric's Hollow" was no longer true and the secret was invalidated at
that time, if not at the very moment that Pettigrew proved faithless.

I think that Dumbledore had *not* been told the secret, and his
knowing (as he had known before the secret was placed inside
Pettigrew) where the Potters had been hiding was enough to tell him
that they had been betrayed and were either in great danger or already
dead. But, IMO, he would have needed Snape's faded Dark Mark to tell
him that Harry was alive and Voldemort defeated.

Carol, agreeing that the charm was no longer in effect when Hagrid
arrived and Harry was visible amid the rubble (along with his parents'
bodies) because the Fidelius was already broken