Thoughts on the Fidelius

[Mike]

No: HPFGUIDX 158416

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "snow15145" wrote:
> Mike previously:
> <snipping myself> It occurs to me that the owner of the 
> property would have to consent to the property becoming part of 
> the 'secret' in order for the 'secret' to be both *true* and 
> *propietary*. Else, anyone could walk up to another's house and 
> Fidelius that house as their HQ.
> 
> Snow:
> That makes it sound as though the Fidelius is conditional to the 
> residence and I thought it was stated that it was conditional to  
> the secret keeper only, which was Dumbledore in the case of  
> Grimmald Place. 

Mike now:
See, this is part of my premise. The secret has to be *proprietary*. 
You can't just call any place you want your 'secret' residence. DD 
can't walk up to Lucius Malfoy's mansion and invoke a Fidelius Charm 
saying that this house is the secret HQ of the Order of the Pigeons, 
thereby stopping the Malfoy's from finding their own house. DD 
doesn't have propriety over Lucius' house. It's the same for 12GP. 
Sirius, as the owner of the house, has to give his permission to 
make the house the HQ for the OotP and to be part of the 'secret'. 
Once Sirius is dead, the house passes to new ownership. If the new 
owner does not consent to it being the HQ then the Fidelius is 
dissolved. DD would no longer have propriety to claim the house as 
part of his 'secret'. That's why they moved the HQ out until the 
could positively determine that ownership was passed to Harry and 
that Harry had no objection to keeping the HQ there.


> Snow again:
> Sirius dying did not affect the Charm since he was not the secret 
> keeper, which then makes perfect sense that the Fidelius was not  
> the homestead but the Order. Dumbledore said that they moved the  
> Order temporarily until they were certain of whom the residence 
> belonged to.

Mike:
See above. Sirius dying affected the ownership of the house which 
*does* affect the applicability of the Fidelius. His dying doesn't 
necessarily break the charm nor reveal the 'secret' location of the 
OotP HQ, but the new owner could certainly invoke his/her right of 
ownership and refuse to allow their property to be someone 
elses 'secret' location.


> Snow again:
> If we apply this same condition to Godric's Hollow then Peter 
> being said keeper, who is not yet dead, would remain to hold the  
> secret of the Fidelius and yet even muggles knew the whereabouts  
> once the deed was served. No one could have found Godric's Hollow  
> residence if Godric's Hollow were the protected item of the 
> Fidelius charm. (I admit it doesn't make much sense the way in  
> which we have been viewing it)
 
Mike:
Right, which is why I view the 'secret' as no longer *true* once the 
Potters are no longer hiding (Lily and James dead, Harry removed). 
But, I further hypothesized the the Fidelius was cast as a "we are 
hiding from someone" charm. This would allow Flitwick's presentation 
to still apply to the Potters scenario and would make sense of the 
aftermath. If LV was told the 'secret' then the Fidelius is broken, 
anybody can find the Potters now. It doesn't matter that Peter, the 
SK, is still around, the Fidelius was already broken.


> Snow:
> <snip>
> But I have to ask before I read on if you feel that the Fidelius 
> did not protect Harry that night?

Mike:
Yes, I think the Fidelius included Harry, at least I would hope so. 
But we must take into account what Flitwick said. That it is an 
immmensly complex spell and that the Potters may not have cast it 
correctly.


> Snow:
> First, Peter is alive and is the secret keeper so no one could 
> find Godric's Hollow if the Fidelius were placed on the residence  
> unless Peter died. We know the residence could be found so the 
> charm was not placed with Godric's Hollow, would be a fair 
> assumption
I think you agree with this.

Mike:
Yes, except the part about Peter dying having an effect. JKR said 
the secret isn't broken by the SK dying. I don't think you meant it 
that way, did you?


> Snow again:
> <snip> 
> Lastly, when you state, "the Potters were hiding from Lord 
> Voldemort" I'm only to guess that you include Harry in the 
> scenario sinse he is a Potter. 

Mike:
Yup :-)


> Snow:
> This might be were I part company completely because the Potter's 
> were not only protecting themselves but more so their child. Even  
> if you take the prophecy out of the equation, you can't dismiss 
> the protection factor of parents for their child. Especially if  
> James and Lily were not aware of the prophecy because they would  
> then be 'thee' intended victims and would want to protect the baby 
> that much more merely being parents. 
> 
> If James and Lily were aware of the prophecy, I don't think much 
> would have changed except that they would have made alternate  
> plans for the child's protection separate from their own so Harry  
> would be that much more protected if Voldemort managed to  
> infiltrate their own defense.
> 
> Snow, thinking Mike and I may be on the same page but coloring the 
> picture differently.

Mike:
I'm not seeing where you and I part company. I don't disagree with 
anything you say in the above paragraphs and don't see where it's 
different from what I'm saying. Unless you mean that *bulletproof* 
crack? ;-) All I'm suggesting there is that the Potters may not have 
understood all the ramifications of how they worded their spell 
and/or may not have known what they could or couldn't make 
a 'secret' of. Maybe I could have added *inexperienced* instead of 
bulletproof.

I don't think DD ever told the Potters about the prophesy per se, 
only that LV was after them and Harry personally. You have a good 
idea regarding seperate protection for Harry, but I just don't think 
they did it.

To sum up, IMO there is no longer any Fidelius on the house in 
Godric's Hollow nor the hiding place of the Potters (all 3 of 'em). 
Also, IMO, the *whereabouts of the HQ of the OotP* is still 
a 'secret' and now that DD is dead, nobody new can find the *HQ* 
location. As to anyone finding the house at 12 GP, I think the 
protections the Blacks put on it are still in place, independent of 
the house being the "secret HQ of the OotP. So if the OotP moved out 
or disbanded, Harry might still have a problem with the Black's 
protections, or not. Who knows, who cares, it's not going to be a 
factor, Harry will never live there.

Mike