[HPforGrownups] Re: In defense of DD WAS musings on Dumbledore/Cruel, Mean and Nasty

[Magpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 158769


> Carol:
> Now, to Magpie and those who agree with her: Think of the dangers of
> placing Harry with a wizarding family. How would a loving wizarding
> family avoid indulging a child that the WW regarded as its savior?
> More important, how could they hide him? They'd want to show him off
> in public or to every visitor. Every eye would be on Harry. Even if
> they could somehow keep the DEs away from him, he'd be a celebrity
> before he could talk. How could he avoid thinking that he was special,
> turning into something worse than James? Already he has difficult
> studying and paying attention in class. Would a kid who thought of
> himself as the Chosen One, who had a fan club like Krum's from the
> moment he got to school if not sooner, ever learn anything? Would he
> learn resourcefulness and independence and true courage?

Magpie:
I think these are all valid points and good reasons for Harry to grow up in 
the Muggle World rather than the WW.  Being raised in the Muggle World isn't 
really a hardship, after all.

But of course we wouldn't want any one person deciding how other peoples' 
children should be raised and with what values in general.  Harry is a 
special case--Dumbleodre sees himself as raising an important resource so is 
making choices based on those concerns, period.  James, for instance, may 
have been an arrogant berk in many ways but he also had plenty of good 
qualities (enough to please Lily Potter and others).  In a way he's living 
proof that you can't really know what someone is about.  Snape's 
another--based on his upbringing and some of the superficial things about 
him as a kid one might think, as Sirius maybe did, that Snape was just a 
greasy little oddball.  But really he was more.

Basically, I'm assuming that none of us would want Dumbledore making these 
kinds of decisions for Harry if he were just Harry and Sirius were free to 
raise him as his parents wanted, and that he's making them now as somebody 
protecting his plan, no matter what occasional impulses to treat him like a 
grandson he has.

Carol:
>
> I am *not* saying that Dumbledore knew that the Dursleys would abuse
> Harry, much less that he wanted or expected them to do so. I'm saying
> that he knew the dangers of having Harry grow up as a celebrity and he
> wanted to avoid them. Even if Harry somehow didn't grow up with a big
> head, still he would have the burden of knowing what the WW expected
> of him from an early age. I think that Dumbledore wanted to spare him
> that as long as possible. And he did, after all, tell Petunia to raise
> him as her own son. It's not his fault that she (and Vernon) didn't.

Magpie:
I don't think that raising Harry away from the WW was a bad thing--Sirius is 
out of the picture, and there's nothing inherently bad about the Muggle 
world that Harry needs to be saved from.  Growing up as a normal kid is 
fine. I suspect that if the Dursleys had been normal parents it wouldn't be 
an issue--they would have been favorite characters and beloved by Harry, 
probably.  I don't think anyone feels Harry misses out by not being a 
pampered little prince.  They have trouble with Harry being a neglected 
skinny waif. Harry is being treated badly and Dumbledore has every way of 
knowing this, so when it comes to that I think it's better that he just find 
it something he can live with rather than part of the plan to build Harry's 
character.

Carol:
> As I said, look at what frequently happens to child stars in RL. Look
> at, say, Michael Jackson. I realize that what happened to him wouldn't
> happen in the WW, but the consequences of celebrity, especially for
> someone who did nothing to earn it, as in Harry's case, can be
> disastrous.

Magpie:
Semi-OT and getting into "what if" territory, but I'd counter Michael 
Jackson with Shirley Temple, a much bigger child star who grew up just fine 
(or Prince William)--perhaps because she had a loving family who treated her 
normally.  Many child stars who grew up to be successful have that in 
common.  Obviously Harry no longer had biological parents and we don't know 
which Wizarding families might have given him that kind of upbringing, but 
the Dursleys were potentially the worst thing to do to Harry to keep him 
humble.  He spends 11 years being special and despised, then finds out he's 
really a super hero in some other world?  Sounds like exactly the type of 
thing that could create a monster!  (Not that this is really relevent since 
it didn't happen but hey, Tom Riddle might have been much better if he'd 
grown up in the WW as well.)  There are child stars who are celebrities and 
also are abused.  A child growing up ordinary is good.  A child growing up 
mistreated seems to be bad by definition, whichever way his character turns 
out.

Carol:
> As for Harry's parents' wishes, they never anticipated that their
> child would be the Boy Who Lived. If they had foreseen that view of
> him, I think they'd agree with DD that an upbringing like Lily's would
> be better for him than an upbringing like James's for a variety of
> reasons--safety, of course, being the most important.

Magpie:
Yes, I do agree James and Lily would have made no plans to deal with Harry 
being a Chosen One--and besides Sirius was taken out of the picture by 
extenuating circumstances.


Carol:
> Carol, still believing that Dumbledore was wise to want Harry to grow
> up away from the WW and emphasizing again that his *primary*
> consideration was Harry's safety

Magpie:
I agree that growing up away from the WW was a wise idea--but that's a 
different thing from growing up with the Dursleys or people like them.  I 
don't think there was much good in that outside the blood protection.

Tesha:
 My questions is--- While we analyze the story, should we try to set
aside out our experiences and prejudices to fully enjoy the story, or
is feeling the injustice personally an important part of JKR's stories?

Magpie:
I'd say it's pretty obviously an important part of her stories.  Umbridge 
seems designed to generate that feeling on every page.  There's comeuppance 
scenes a-plenty as well as scenes where good guys get rewarded.

-m