[HPforGrownups] Re: AK and guns- both unforgivable, and sometimes necessary!

[Magpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 167173

> Carol:
> But I don't agree that an AK requires hatred to cast.
>
> Pippin:
> If  AK were the most humane way of killing, then I would expect
> Hagrid to have wanted that for Buckbeak, and for the unicorn, had
> it been needful "ter put it out of its misery." But Macnair's axe is
> evidently standard, and Hagrid goes hunting armed with a crossbow,
> not a wand.

Magpie:
My thoughts here might not be helpful at all, but when I read it I chalk it 
up to JKR having them use the thing that feels best for the scene. Hagrid 
hunts with a crossbow because when she thinks of hunting, that's what she 
thinks of, just as execution is done with an axe. It's not about being 
humane, it's about what you think of when you think of hunting or execution 
(if it were the most humane, it would undercut the drama).

And then, of course, when Hagrid goes into the FF first year, and when 
Buckbeak is being executed, there is no AK that we know of yet, because it's 
only introduced in GoF, so they kind of can't use it.

Finally, I'd say Hagrid isn't technically supposed to be doing magic at all 
and possibly couldn't perform an advanced spell like that so would be far 
more comfortable with a crossbow, and MacNair, being a sadist, would get 
much more satisfaction out of chopping off the head of an offender.

> Carol:
> What cause did Fake!Moody have to hate the spider or Bellatrix to hate
> the fox or Wormtail to hate Cedric or LV to hate Frank Bryce or Bertha
> Jorkins? I don't think he even *hated* Lily Potter. She was just in his 
> way.
>
> Pippin:
> "Always the innocent are the first victims" The victims of hatred
> are seldom the ones who were its instigators.
>
> That is what Dumbledore was trying to explain, IMO,  when he said
> that Sirius didn't hate Kreacher.

Magpie:
But doesn't this sort of water down the idea of "hatred" until it's almost 
meaningless, or just say only some people can do it? (Or is that the point?) 
It seems like it's important that LV didn't hate Lily or even care whether 
he killed her or not, and that Bellatrix didn't hate the fox and Barty 
didn't hate the spider. They might be generally hateful, but not at the 
victim, so if Snape were DDM could he be using his hatred of Voldemort? 
Would DD be able to tell the hatred wasn't really for him?

I tend to think in general magic sometimes works by showing emotions of the 
caster, but sometimes it's just a case of accomplished Wizards being able to 
do what they need to do. So Snape's not being cheerful doesn't mean, imo, 
that he can't perform a Patronus. I suspect both he and Dumbledore could 
perform AK if they had to, and Dumbledore in particular doesn't hate.

Pippin:
> I think the fox felt it when that intensity of hatred was turned
> towards it. "The harsh cry startled the fox, now crouching almost
> flat in the undergrowth. It leapt from its hiding place and up
> the bank. There was a flash of green light, a yelp, and the fox
> fell back to the ground, dead." Avada may be painless and humane,
> but if so, what made the fox yelp? Not startlement -- it was
> already running away.

Magpie:
I'm going to again go with JKR always writing killing the way it fits the 
scene best. Startlement would work for me.

-m