Time-turning

[Zara]

No: HPFGUIDX 167437


> Bart:
> Here is the flaw: According to canon, Harry goes back in time AFTER 
he is saved from the Dementors. Except that it is an older Harry who 
saves a younger Harry. But, if older Harry is not around, then, if 
you assume nothing else, then younger Harry is pretty much dead, and 
there IS no older Harry to go back in time. So, the story conflicts 
with itself.

zgirnius:
The story would only conflict with itself if older Harry had not gone 
back in time. But he did, fortunately.

> Bart: 
> 1) Harry-a hears the axe fall (while Harry-f saves Buckbeak)
> 2) Harry-b is in Shrieking Shack scene
> 3) Harry-c meets Demontors.
> 4) Harry-d and Sirius are saved by Harry-g
> 5) Sirius and Buckbeak escape with the help of Harry-h
> 6) Harry-e goes back in time. 
> 7) Harry-i continues on. 

zgirnius:
Exactly, and the later books continue the adventures of Harry-i (or 
j+, if you prefer).

> Bart:
> But let's look at it from Harry's point of view:
> 
> a) Harry hears the axe fall.
> b) Harry is in the shrieking shack scene
> c) Harry meets dementors.
> d) Harry and Sirius are saved from the dementors (Harry catches 
glimpse of his savior)
> e) Harry goes back in time
> f) Harry saves Buckbeak
> g) Harry saves Harry and Sirius from the dementors. 
> h) Harry helps Sirius and Buckbeak escape. 
> i) Harry continues on.
> 
> Note that in Harry's line, if Harry-d does not survive the 
dementors without Harry-g's help, then Harry-e never goes back in 
time. 

zgirnius:
Right, but Harry's point of view is not reality. Reality is 1) 
through 7). Harry's experience is subjective. Unbeknownst to Harry d, 
it is Harry g that saved him. He *is* saved, so he can go on to 
become Harry g (speaking in terms of his subjective experience of 
time).

> Bart:
> Therefore, either Harry is NOT saved, and the whole thing doesn't 
happen, 

zgirnius:
I would say, obviously not, we saw that it did.

> Bart:
> OR, there is an event that is wiped out in the process of making 
the loop that does not change the fact that Harry-e goes back in 
time. Now, since Harry has a memory of seeing SOMEONE saving him, 
that kind of narrows it down to two possibilities:
> 
> Either the dementors would not have endangered Harry and Sirius if 
it weren't for Harry-g, or somehow they got saved by some other 
factor the first time around. 

zgirnius:
There is no first time around as I see it. Hary has two different 
expriences, but *both* are of the first time around. First he 
experiences it as an almost-victim of the Dementors, second he 
expereinces it as the rescuer. This odd and seemingly illogical state 
of affairs is what the Time-Turner does - it allows Harry to relive 
the same section of time again, but does not alter that it is still 
the same section of time.

As I see it, had you and I borrowed Moody's cloak and my father's 
Muggle binoculars, and snuck out to follow the Trio, and later Harry, 
through his adventures that night starting with the vitis to Hagrid, 
here is what we would have seen when Harry was attacked by the 
Dementors: Harry, rescued at the nick of time by a distant wizard 
which the binoculars would reveal to be...Harry. *We* would be seeing 
the real passage of time, since it is Harry, not we, who is messing 
with how he moves through time.