[HPforGrownups] Re: Time-turning

[Bart Lidofsky]

No: HPFGUIDX 167432

From: Zara <zgirnius at yahoo.com>
Here is the order of events as I see it:
>
>5) Harry and Hermoine go back in time. 
>      This occurs at roughly the same time as H&H leave the castle
>      for Hagrid's. We can deduce this both because they almost
>      certainly hear themselves in the hallway. Also because they
>      rescue Bucky before the axe falls.
>6, 10) H&H save Buckbeak. (Why twice? We were only shown it once.)
>1) Harry hears the axe fall.
>2) Shrieking Shack incident.
>3) Harry and Sirius meet the Dementors.
>4) (deleted nonexistent event - please cite canon this happened, if I 
>am mistaken. You are *assuming* this, I believe. The assumption that  
>Harry was saved by himself is at least as correct as yours, we have 
>canon of Harry doing it.)
>11), 7) Harry saves himself. (This only happens once, again).
>12, 8) H&H save Sirius. (Again, only happens once).
>13) Time marches on (If you insist; it always does).

Here is the flaw: According to canon, Harry goes back in time AFTER he is saved from the Dementors. Except that it is an older Harry who saves a younger Harry. But, if older Harry is not around, then, if you assume nothing else, then younger Harry is pretty much dead, and there IS no older Harry to go back in time. So, the story conflicts with itself. Or, there's another part that is not told; younger Harry surviving, then going back into time, and saving his younger self, who, when he goes back in time, has slightly (but significantly) different memories. Let me put it another way: we will measure time by letters. The older Harry gets, the higher the letter in the alphabet attached to his name becomes. 

1) Harry-a hears the axe fall (while Harry-f saves Buckbeak)
2) Harry-b is in Shrieking Shack scene
3) Harry-c meets Demontors.
4) Harry-d and Sirius are saved by Harry-g
5) Sirius and Buckbeak escape with the help of Harry-h
6) Harry-e goes back in time. 
7) Harry-i continues on. 

But let's look at it from Harry's point of view:

a) Harry hears the axe fall.
b) Harry is in the shrieking shack scene
c) Harry meets dementors.
d) Harry and Sirius are saved from the dementors (Harry catches glimpse of his savior)
e) Harry goes back in time
f) Harry saves Buckbeak
g) Harry saves Harry and Sirius from the dementors. 
h) Harry helps Sirius and Buckbeak escape. 
i) Harry continues on.

Note that in Harry's line, if Harry-d does not survive the dementors without Harry-g's help, then Harry-e never goes back in time. 

Therefore, either Harry is NOT saved, and the whole thing doesn't happen, OR, there is an event that is wiped out in the process of making the loop that does not change the fact that Harry-e goes back in time. Now, since Harry has a memory of seeing SOMEONE saving him, that kind of narrows it down to two possibilities:

Either the dementors would not have endangered Harry and Sirius if it weren't for Harry-g, or somehow they got saved by some other factor the first time around. 

Bart