Time-turning

Dana ida3 at planet.nl
Fri Apr 13 16:40:53 UTC 2007


No: HPFGUIDX 167480

Dana before:
> > Sirius (in OotP) could have saved himself only if he saved 
> > himself the first time but he doesn't, it is therefore irrelevant 
> > to compare these events. JMHO
 
Magpie:
> But I don't think it's irrelevant given the context I brought that 
> up, which was in response to the opposite of what you're explaining 
> here. Others are claiming that Harry was saved him his future self, 
> period. You seem to be saying that time did indeed happen twice, 
> and that the first time Harry #1 did save himself. Iow, he didn't 
> really need his future self to save him, he only remembers being 
> saved by his future self because the two times melded and he 
> therefore forgot the version where it was not his future self that 
> saved him.
<snip>

Okay let me get one thing straight first, Harry1 survived because 
otherwise he could not go back in time, period. 

The problem is that everybody reads the events of Harry1 as first 
time and Harry2 as second time but that is not how it is written. JKR 
only writes the end time and shows us events from Harry's 
perspective; from both of the Harry's. 

Harry1 did not need saving from Harry2, because Harry2 would not have 
been there if Harry1 hadn't survived (I think you are with me so far, 
right?) but JKR wants it to be Harry2 who saves Harry1, or to be more 
clear she wants Prongs to safe Harry and Sirius. The moment Harry2 
conjures the patronus, history changed and it was only him who saved 
Harry1 because all events and memories of the first time are replaced 
by this action. 

So when Harry2 saves his past self, his memory chances at the same 
time because for Harry1 the events have already taken place and this 
is why Harry is able to realize, he did not see his dad but himself. 

The moment Harry2 changed history, the first time becomes non-
existent and therefore irrelevant. So even if it was Snape who saved 
Harry1 then Snape's memory of it was erased the moment Harry2 changed 
history and it became non-existent and therefore it never happened. 
Snape would never be able to remember, he had anything to do with 
Harry's survival, not even if he would take Harry's memory and look 
at it in a pencieve because Harry's memory would not contain a record 
of it because Harry2 changed events *before* a different survival 
scenario could have played out. 

So for the storyline it is absolutely irrelevant how Harry1 survived 
because at the end of the day it was Harry2 and no one else because 
time 1 + time 2 = end time and the only time left standing. 

In case of Sirius; Sirius could not safe himself because he falls 
through the veil but if someone else would go back in time and chains 
Sirius to the bed so he could not go to the DoM, then yes Sirius 
would still be alive and no one would have a memory of him ever being 
there. That is why JKR destroys the timeturners just before Sirius 
falls through the veil. Not because it is not possible to change 
events but because it would disrupt the storyline to much and 
therefore it is irrelevant and you cannot compare the two events. 

Changing history by changing random events would change the lives of 
to many people and why JKR just doesn't go there, besides bringing 
back Harry's parents or killing LV before he can do harm by means of 
timeturning, would make the story of Harry irrelevant and thus not 
much fun at all. It does not mean it would not be possible.

Dana 






More information about the HPforGrownups archive