Who was responsible for Sirius' death? Who else--Dumbles, of course

[julie]

No: HPFGUIDX 167548

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, JLyon <jnoyl at ...> wrote:
>
> Voldie
> Bella
> Snape
> DoubleDumb
> and, finally, last but not least
> DoubleDumb

Julie:
 For me that order would be:
 60% Bellatrix (she did the actual "killing")
 30% Voldemort (he sent the DEs to the MoM to kill at will)
  5% Sirius (he made the choice to go, and particularly made  
the choice not to take Bellatrix seriously)
  3% Dumbledore (admittedly his decision not to give Harry more
information made Harry more vulnerable to Voldemort's mind
games)
  1.5% Harry (he refused to consider anything outside his own
emotionally-charged impulses--Hermione's advice, the mirror, etc)
  .5% Snape (he bears minimal responsibility since the goading
back and forth between him and Sirius was a long-standing
juvenile tactic that had little effect on either of them
other than to cement their hatred of each other)

Note: I'm talking moral responsibility above. Criminal 
responsibility would fall on Bellatrix (the murderer)
and Voldemort (co-conspirator)--and perhaps the rest of
the DEs present at the DoM (at least in U.S. courts all
gang members present at a murder scene can be found 
equally guilty of the crime). 


JLyon:
> I still have heard of no justification for keeping the prophesy  
> secret that was worth anyone dying. If DD truly wanted Harry to 
know,  
> he would have found someone to teach Harry occlumency. At the very  
> least, he would have told Harry that Voldie wanted the prophesy 
and  
> that he might use Harry to get at it. This would have, for once, 
been  
> the truth and would have allowed Harry nearly nine months to think  
> about any visions in terms of being Voldie's actual actions or 
just  
> visions to lead Harry into trouble.

Julie:
I agree. As Dumbledore admitted, his mistakes are correspondingly
bigger, and this was probably his biggest. His justification was
that he was protecting Harry, and I believe that was his intent.
He certainly had no reason to suppose anyone would die because
of it, given the unlikelihood that Harry and his friends could
get to the MoM, and Sirius would leave Grimmauld Place and go 
there against advice, and Bellatrix would get the opportunity
to kill her reasonably skilled cousin because he chose to let
his guard down. That is what happened, of course, and in 
retrospect Dumbledore has reason to take on some blame (as
he does), but he could never have foreseen it. 

JLyon:
> If I had to lay the blame, it would be with DD. He knew what could  
> happen and did nothing intelligent to prevent it.

Julie:
See above. Dumbledore couldn't foresee every possibility,
and the sequence of events that led to the death of Sirius
add up to a very unlikely possibility at that.

JLyon:
> It can not be Harry's fault, except based on hindsight (which is  
> ALWAYS so clear after an event has unfolded). Since Harry had only  
> had "true visions," there was no way for Harry to accept that it  
> could be a false vision. He was as convinced that it was true as  
> Arthur being bitten by a great big snake. It wasn't Sirius's fault  
> except to the degree that talking instead of fighting led to his  
> death. Again, as I remember, DD had the situation in hand and gave  
> Sirius no support. Nobody supported Sirius against the deadliest DE.
> I lay almost all of Harry's problems (including getting Harry's  
> parents into safety) at DD's high-heeled and silver-buckled boots.

Julie:
I don't think Harry bears much responsibility, though he does
bear at least a small amount. He could have done several things
differently, and he knew it as he was choosing not to do them
(deliberately not trying to learn Occlumency, not listening to
Hermione, etc). And Sirius does bear some responsibility for 
his actions, IMO, as he didn't take Bellatrix seriously. She
couldn't have killed him if he hadn't made it so easy for her.
(And, yes, I know Sirius was depressed, disturbed from his
years in Azkaban, and so on, but if he was considered stable
enough by everyone to be part of the Order rather than placed
in a nice rubber room somewhere, then he could understand that
Bellatrix was a dangerous opponent not to be taken lightly.)

BTW, I'm not sure what you mean by no one supporting Sirius 
against the deadliest DE. I think the others were busy at the
time, and I'm not sure any of the other DEs were considered to
be less deadly than Bellatrix. Certainly she's not deadlier 
than Voldemort, whom DD was busy engaging. 

JLyon: 
> DD died being the worst headmaster and the worst mentor there has  
> probably ever been in fiction. Any headmaster would have been 
fired  
> after any one of Harry's years--and Minnie-the-robot would have 
been  
> canned also.

Julie:
I'm not sure we can compare Dumbledore to other headmasters
in fiction, as very few (none?) of them run Wizarding schools.
We know the WW is far more accepting of harsh discipline, dark
pasts in teachers, and students placed in physical danger than
are Muggle schools in real life. Or perhaps the WW is simply
determined to prepare the students for the harsher and more 
dangerous Wizarding world. In any case, we have no indication
that Dumbledore is considered a bad headmaster, and at least
in comparison to Durmstrang's headmaster--an ex-DE who ran for
his life when Voldemort returned--he comes out pretty well.

As for a mentor, the jury is still out on that one, I think.
At least until we read DH and see what Harry does with the
information and advice Dumbledore gave him in HBP.

JLyon:
 Of course, that would also lead to firing the staff DE,  
> Sybil, and exorcising at least one ghost. Hogwarts must be a 
running  
> joke to the rest of the world.
> 

Julie:
Again, are we talking about the Wizarding world? If HP 
was set in the real world, you might have a point. But in 
the WW, Hogwarts seems to be a typical school, except that
they do not teach Dark Arts as some schools do (Durmstrang).
Other than that missing element being derided by DE children
such as Draco, whose opinions don't exactly reflect the WW
at large, there's no evidence Hogwarts is viewed negatively
at all. 

Julie