Snape at end of OotP (WAS Re: Who was responsible for Sirius' death? ...)

[wynnleaf]

No: HPFGUIDX 167591

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Dana" <ida3 at ...> wrote:
>
> zgirnius:
 Snape did express a frustration Sirius was 
> > feeling and threw it in his face, but first, that was months 
> > before, and second, Sirius would have gone anyway, in my opinion. 
> <snip>
> 
> Dana: 
> If you read that scene carefully then you notice that it was Harry 
> that caused it by looking at Sirius for help. That is what triggered 
> Sirius to act not due to anything Snape did. 

wynnleaf
That was *well* into the conversation and there had already been
numerous rude remarks tossed around.  The first person to make a rude
remark is Sirius' first comment to Snape, before Snape had addressed
him at all.  (Just for the record, Sirius is also the first to draw
his wand.)  But of course, this incident had nothing to do with Sirius
going to the MOM, as he would always have been willing to put his life
at risk to save Harry.

> zgirnius:
> > You realize Harry forgot Snape twice, don't you? After repeated 
> > attempts at mental communication with Snape and the cryptic Padfoot 
> > comment he threw at Snape as the later departed, he never even 
> > bothered to check what the only Order member at Hogwarts had done 
> > about the warning.<snip>

Dana
> Yes, but this is again Snape fault by the way he reacts to Harry's 
> attempt to notify him. Would you believe after such a reaction the 
> man is going to look into things? I wouldn't. 

wynnleaf
Is Harry incapable of realizing that with Umbridge there Snape can't
give him *any* sign that he understands Harry's message and will act
on it?  There's no reason Harry shouldn't be able to figure that out
-- it's the very reason he gave mental and "coded" messages to Snape
in the first place.  It's ridiculous to think Snape is at "fault" for
not reacting positively to Harry at that time.  Umbridge was
suspicious as it was.  Even Dumbledore told Harry this later.

Dana
That is why Harry still 
> thinks he must act himself because he could not believe Snape would 
> take any actions on his behalf (or Sirius's) 

wynnleaf
While Harry *might* have thought that, if he'd considered Snape at
all, we never get any hint from canon that he even thought about Snape
after getting away from Umbridge.  Harry thinks he must act on his own
for the same reason he acted on his own in his original attempt to
contact Sirius.  Harry doesn't think about asking Snape's help at all.
 He could have gone to Snape right away after the vision.  Snape was,
more than others, aware of his connection with Voldemort.  Harry could
have told Snape and asked Snape to contact Sirius.  It's not that
Harry considers this and decides against it.  He never even considers
it.  He didn't think of Snape until he saw him.

Dana
> Snape's idea is just really strange because what changed between the 
> time, Harry gave Snape the cryptic message and him going into the 
> Forest? Snape never came back not even after Harry was already gone.

wynnleaf
What would he have come back to do?  Announce to Harry, in front of
Umbridge no less, that "Padfoot" was home?  Snape couldn't come back
and tell Harry anything as long as Harry was supposed to be with
Umbridge.  

Of course, I don't really think Snape would have done so anyway.  I
think Snape would likely consider the whole business to be adult Order
business, and that once Harry had passed along his message, he should
stay out of it.  Besides, as long as Harry was with Umbridge -- and
she had no intention of letting him go -- Snape wouldn't have to
wonder about the possibility of Harry attempting to go to London. 
Anyway, how would he go?  As far as Snape knew, Harry had no access to
brooms, floo, train, or any other readily available transportation.  

It is only after Snape learned that Harry had gone with Umbridge into
the forest that he'd have to start wondering about where Harry was. 
And even then, he wouldn't be expected to wonder that Harry was
anywhere *other* than the forest until a fair amount of time had
passed and none of the three had returned.  Even then, the fact that
Umbridge had not returned proclaiming that Harry had escaped, still
made it more likely that Harry was with her in the forest.

Dana
> We do not hear Ron, Luna, Ginny or Neville say that Snape came back. 
> If Snape had come back, he could have ordered the group (just Harry's 
> group) to his office and have them tell him, what has been going on.

Huh?  The point you seem to making is about Snape not coming back to
tell *Harry* what occurred.  If Snape thought Harry was there, then
Umbridge would also be there.  Snape couldn't do any ordering around
of anyone with Umbridge there.  

Dana 
> He is head of House and he could have ordered these four being handed 
> over to him. He could tell Ron and Neville to go look for Harry and 
> tell him everything is okay at HQ. 

wynnleaf
I'm really surprised at this notion.  When Snape left the room,
Umbridge was in control of the situation.  Yet you are saying he
should have come back later and basically taken over, and that it
wouldn't have threatened his cover at all.  Sorry, I don't buy that.


> zgirnius:
> > How does Snape know they are off to the Forest in time to follow?
> > His first thought, quite properly, was to verify that Sirius was 
> > safe. Voldemort strikes me as a greater potential danger than 
> > Dolores Umbridge had shown herself to be thus far. The removals you 
> > credit to her involved the Minister of Magic and a number of 
> > Aurors, none of whom were present at Hogwarts.
> <snip> 
> 
> Dana: 
> Because DD tells us so. He tells us that Snape realized where Harry 
> had gone (DoM) when he failed to return from his trip with Umbridge 
> and that after he alerted the Order, he had intended to search for 
> Harry in the Forest. This can only be Snape's account of things 
> because there are no other witnesses. 

wynnleaf
There are a few points which canon does not tell us.  We don't know at
what point Snape learned that Umbridge had taken Harry and Hermione
into the forest.  Nor do we know at what point Snape decided that
their not returning after some period of time might mean that Harry
and Hermione had gone to London.  

We don't know if Snape learned about the forest excursion as soon they
left (unlikely) or if they'd been gone for hours, all the while Snape
thinking Harry was with Umbridge in the castle, only to discover
sometime later that night that Harry had accompanied her into the
forest.  

And how long should Snape be expected to think Harry and Hermione were
*with* Umbridge in the forest (after all, when they left it was
Umbridge who was in control)?  For instance, if Snape heard Umbridge
had taken them into the forest 30 minutes before, then one might
reasonably expect them to still be with her.  Over what period of time
-- with Umbridge not back yet -- would one begin to think the children
had escaped *and* found a way to travel to London?  

In general, people that find Snape's actions too suspicious here seem
to assume that Snape heard immediately, or within the hour, about the
trip into the forest.  The theory is generally that Snape should have
assumed Harry and Hermione would just naturally overcome Umbridge
(they didn't - the centaurs did).  The theory also holds that Snape
should assume that not only would Harry and Hermione overcome Umbridge
(which they didn't), but they'd also somehow prevent her return to the
castle (they didn't, the centaurs did).  The theory also continues
with the notion that Snape should have assumed Harry had some sort of
short-notice reliable way lined up to travel to London (he didn't --
the thestrals showed up purely by chance of the blood on their
clothes).  In other words, Snape should have assumed a lot of stuff
that wasn't true, and since he didn't assume a lot of stuff that
wasn't true anyway, his actions were suspicious.  Sorry, doesn't make
sense to me. 

In fact, the way in which Harry and Hermione escape Umbridge and get
to London is built on circumstance -- meeting the centaurs is
Hermione's hope, but Umbridge insulting them in such a way that they'd
attack her is circumstance. Grawp coming along so that Harry and
Hermione could escape is a huge bit of luck as was the blood on their
clothes attracting the thestrals.  Neither Snape nor anyone else
should have been able to assume that their trip into the forest would
so circumstantially result in their later flight to London.

And that's assuming (a big assumption) that Snape heard about the trip
into the forest and waited around for awhile.  For all we know, he
heard about the trip into the forest hours later, immediately realised
they'd been gone too long and should have been back if nothing had
gone wrong, and called the Order right away.

Dana
> If Snape just based his actions on a lot of assumptions then he is 
> not such a great thinker after all and a little full of himself that 
> what he assumes is always correct. Especially with his 4 years of 
> many Harry experiences, he should know by now his assumptions are 
> almost always wrong even if he judged the overall situation right.  

wynnleaf
As I tried to point out above, critics of Snape at this point seem to
think that Snape should have credited Harry with more ability than
Harry actually had that night.  Harry did not overcome Umbridge, and
nor did Hermione.  The fact that they got away from Umbridge and the
centaurs depended a lot on luck and Grawp -- was Snape supposed to
know that Grawp would come to protect Harry?  And then the ability to
travel to London came simply because of the circumstantial blood on
their clothes attracting the thestrals.

It wasn't Harry's or Hermione's abilities at fighting, subterfuge,
trickery, magic, or any other skill that got them away from the
centaurs and brought the thestrals.  Yet critics of Snape want to
claim that Snape should have *assumed* that Harry would be able to
affect his circumstances enough to overcome Umbridge, escape her, and
get to London.  

> zgirnius:
> > I would be surprised too, were I Snape. I imagine Snape got the 
> > message loud and clear two or three times in the office scene, and 
> > figured that after repeatedly tossing the problem to him, Harry 
> > would check with him to learn what he, Snape, had done about it.
> 
> Dana:
> You would? And would you believe the person you told it too would 
> actually check in after such a response. 
> Snape should know especially after the SWM incident that Harry would 
> not just believe Snape is there for him and that it would take just a 
> little more effort but to me Snape did not care about Harry's state 
> of mind, he just never envisioned the kid would get off the Hogwarts 
> grounds and thus underestimated Harry for the millionth time. 

wynnleaf
If Snape ever thought that Harry wouldn't be able to escape Umbridge
or travel to London on his own, he'd have been right.  It wasn't Harry
who would have been underestimated, it would have been Harry's luck --
or ill-luck in this case, since the trip to London was certainly
ill-fated.

Dana
> It was not his call to just assume anything. He is an Order Member 
> and Harry is in the care of someone fighting the Order all year and 
> we see her put people in danger while there at Hogwarts, with or 
> without help from other MoM members.

wynnleaf
Once again is this notion that Snape should have gone back to give
some message to Harry, right in front of Umbridge.

Dana
 If she had been successful in 
> having Harry reveal Sirius location

wynnleaf
Impossible, and Snape knew it.  Fidelius Charm, remember?  If Snape
can't tell Voldemort and Voldemort knows it, then there was absolutely
no worry that Umbridge could force Harry to tell.

dana
> The only thing I can think off why JKR inserted the Kreacher element 
> into that scene, is because there was no other place to have it 
> revealed that it was Kreacher that betrayed Sirius and Harry. 

wynnleaf
JKR makes this point on her website about Sirius' weaknesses:

<<Sirius is very good at spouting bits of excellent personal
philosophy, but he does not always live up to them. For instance, he
says in "Goblet of Fire" that if you want to know what a man is really
like, 'look at how he treats his inferiors, not his equals.' But
Sirius loathes Kreacher, the house-elf he has inherited, and treats
him with nothing but contempt. Similarly, Sirius claims that nobody is
wholly good or wholly evil, and yet the way he acts towards Snape
suggests that he cannot conceive of any latent good qualities there.>>

I think JKR was making a few of her own points about Sirius in OOTP
and in order to do that, she has Dumbledore make some of those points
to Harry.

wynnleaf