Snape the Spy (WAS Re: Who was responsible for Sirius' death? ...)

[Dana]

No: HPFGUIDX 167734

Carol responds:
<snip>
>I think you're probably right. It seems likely from the
> anticipation among the Order members and the excitement afterward 
> that they expected Snape to provide important information and that 
> he came through brilliantly. A crowd of people, including "Harry's 
> entire guard," even Mad-Eye Moody and Lupin, surrounds Snape as he 
> leaves 12 GP.
<snip>

Dana:
Could you provide canon that Snape came through brilliantly or that 
anyone thought so because him leaving was before Harry's 
conversation with Sirius and Lupin and I do not see any one jump of 
their seat about Snape's brillance and also that Harry's entire 
guard were surrounding Snape and not just leaving at the same time 
as he was, just talking amongst themselves? And Lupin just went with 
them to close the door behind them?


Carol:
> And Snape leaves behind about a dozen scrolls, including the plan 
> of a building, which Bill belatedly Vanishes. 
<snip>

Dana:
Can you provide canon that Snape leaves these behind or even that 
these scrolls are brought in by him? 
Harry got a glimpse of what looked like the lay out of a building, 
why would Snape bring such information with him or how did he even 
get it. 
This is MoM information so it seems far more likely it was provided 
by a MoM employee. There would be no need for Snape to steel such 
information from LV. The Order has access to this information 
through other means. 

How do you know Snape even knows LV's real name is Tom Riddle and 
that therefore the Riddle House belongs to him. You assume LV is 
staying there but there is no canon to support, he is still using 
the house. Just because he was there in GoF before he regained his 
body is no proof, he still uses it and the room Harry's sees LV talk 
to Rockwood in, does not remind him of the Frank Bryce murder. So 
there is no proof he is still using the Riddle House as his hide 
out. 

Carol:
> On another point, Alla mentioned Dumbledore's comment in GoF, "A
> connection I could have made without help," in relation to the
> Pensieve memory of Snape saying that his Dark Mark is growing 
> darker and adding, "Karkaroff's, too." It does sound as if DD is 
> downplayingthe importance of Snape's revelation, and in front of 
> Harry, too (which I, for one, didn't like at all), but the memory 
> does show the reader that Snape is reporting to DD, and I don't 
> think that DD could have known about the Dark Mark itself growing 
> darker without Snape's telling him (he might have suspected it, 
> but he couldn't have confirmed it). The connection he could have 
> on his own relates to Karkaroff: if Snape's is growing darker, so 
> is Karkaroff's.
<snip>

Dana: 
DD is not downplaying the information Snape gives him, about the 
Mark. It just did not add anything on what LV is planning. 
DD already knows LV is actively trying to comeback to Power. Harry 
tells DD about Trelawney's prediction about LV rising back to Power 
with the help of his servant at the end of PoA.
So it makes sense that Snape's Dark Mark is growing Darker because 
DD already KNOWS LV is going to be coming back. 

Even Sirius notices in GoF there is an extraordinary amount of DE 
activity and rumours floating around about LV returning, Snape's 
information adds nothing specific.

You are implying that if DD took this information more seriously 
(and there is no indication he does not just that he didn't need it 
because he already knew) that he could have prevented the Graveyard 
ordeal? How? 

Carol:
> We have evidence of other information that Snape must have 
> provided toDD as DD has no other spy among the Death Eaters. In 
> VW1, he must haveinformed DD that LV was targeting the Potters. 

Well I do not know if this can be correctly assumed because some 
people working as spies for DD could be dead now. It is certainly no 
proof that just because Snape is the only one now, he was the only 
one then, besides Snape is not the only spy now either he is just 
the only spy within LV's inner circles.

Sirius in GoF is also aware of the increased DE activity and about 
the rumours about LV returning to power. With this I just want to 
indicate that information through other resources, can be just as 
valuable and still can add to the overall picture one can lay out 
about enemy activity.  

Besides it also seems Snape could not find out who the spy was 
within the inner circle of the marauders. It is not even implied DD 
got information there was a spy just that LV's actions seemed to 
indicate there was a spy, close to the Potters. 

We also know that Snape only gave DD this information because he 
owed James Potter a debt, not because he was so concerned with their 
safety. It can still be read as Snape attempting to wash himself 
from responsibility. So unless knew information on Snape's activity 
in the first war comes to light in DH, then as it now stands he did 
not do very much then either.  

Carol:
> Dumbledore trusts Snape, and that trust seems deeper and stronger 
> than ever in HBP. That would surely be the case only if Snape 
> really was risking his life to provide information that no one 
> else could provide and at the same time concealing important 
> information (such as his sending or the Order to the MoM and the 
> real nature of Dumbledore's "serious injury" and his own role in 
> preventing it from being fatal).

Dana:
Personally I do not read DD's actions in HBP as his trust in Snape 
being stronger then ever, it seems he has more and more trouble to 
convince himself that he is indeed trustworthy and that he has 
trouble to be called on this mistake by Harry. We never see DD argue 
with Snape before while we have lots of examples Snape is arguing 
with DD. 

You know I was thinking about why the Order was no longer patrolling 
the DoM and then suddenly it occurred to me. Because there was no 
need for it anymore. Snape told DD about Harry's vision that  
Rockwood told LV about the protection on the prophecy and that it 
would mean that only 3 people could retrieve it. DD himself, LV 
himself or Harry. DD was not going to hand it over, it would be 
unlikely LV would come to get it himself and because the Order has 
no information that LV would be able to use Harry to get it for him, 
there is no reason to assume he can get to Harry because he is 
safely at Hogwarts. 

It is interesting that Harry never told Snape about what he heard 
Rockwood tell LV and visa versa but DD does imply that the 
information came from Harry himself during the DoM aftermath 
conversation. Snape only saw a man sitting on his knees in a certain 
room (in the second occlumency lesson)and then responds with the 
remark that it is not up to Harry to know what LV is telling his 
DE's. If this is right then Snape knew about what was said in the 
conversation and he forgot to mention, LV telling Rockwood he had a 
new plan to get it. This doesn't mean DD could not have foreseen LV 
wanting to use Harry but he missed valuable information on how LV 
was going to have Harry do it. Because LV could not get Harry and 
dragg him out of Hogwarts by his hair. DD does not question Snape 
because he believed Snape did not have this information either but 
if he knew what Rockwood told LV without Harry telling him then he 
knew much more then he let on. JMHO

Of course you can read it any way you want but to me it seems Snape 
actually cleared the way for LV, because now he could insert a group 
of DEs into the DoM without being noticed. To me it gives a whole 
knew meaning to Snape's actions and him losing Harry out of his 
sight because if he knew this information, he never told it to DD. 
Unless of course you want to believe DD did not react to it on 
purpose. JMHO

Dana