Snape the Spy (WAS Re: Who was responsible for Sirius' death? ...)

[justcarol67]

No: HPFGUIDX 167798

Carol earlier:
> <snip>
> >I think you're probably right. It seems likely from the
anticipation among the Order members and the excitement afterward 
that they expected Snape to provide important information and that he
came through brilliantly. A crowd of people, including "Harry's 
entire guard," even Mad-Eye Moody and Lupin, surrounds Snape as he 
leaves 12 GP.
> <snip>
> 
Dana responded:
> Could you provide canon that Snape came through brilliantly or that
anyone thought so because him leaving was before Harry's conversation
with Sirius and Lupin and I do not see any one jump of their seat
about Snape's brillance and also that Harry's entire guard were
surrounding Snape and not just leaving at the same time as he was,
just talking amongst themselves? And Lupin just went with them to
close the door behind them?
> 
Carol again:
I provided the canon about the Order members eagerly anticipating the
meeting and crowding excitedly around him in another post. If you
choose to interpret it in some other way than the obvious implication
that it was Snape's report that they found exciting, that's up to you.
> 
Carol earlier:
> > And Snape leaves behind about a dozen scrolls, including the plan
 of a building, which Bill belatedly Vanishes. 
> <snip>
> 
> Dana:
> Can you provide canon that Snape leaves these behind or even that
these scrolls are brought in by him? 

Carol again:
The scrolls were left behind after the meeting at which Snape gave his
report. We know of nothing else that happened at that meeting, no one
else who gave a report, no one else whose presence and information is
stirring up excitement. What else would they be except documents and
floorplans that Snape used in his report?

Dana:
> Harry got a glimpse of what looked like the lay out of a building,
why would Snape bring such information with him or how did he even 
get it. 
> This is MoM information so it seems far more likely it was provided
by a MoM employee. There would be no need for Snape to steel such 
information from LV. The Order has access to this information through
other means. 

Carol:
I agree that it's *probably* "MoM information" though that deduction
is never confirmed. If the Order had access to this information by
other means, why have Snape give a report at all? And Arthur Weasley
and the other MoM employees probably didn't have easy access to the
plans for the Department of *Mysteries*--which had to be kept
*mysterious.* Even the voice on the lift doesn't list the departments
as it does for other floors (offices that are accessible to the
wizarding public once they've passed the security wizard). The DoM
employees are called Unspeakables because they can't or don't speak
about their jobs. Mr. Weasley says in GoF that he has "no idea what
goes on there." (BTW, I did wonder the same thing you did about a
Ministry employee possibly providing the plans, and I'm stating the
only explanation I can come up with. I can't see Snape using plans
supplied by someone else in his report, whidh is clearly both exciting
and informative. And even Sirius Black grudgingly implies that Snape's
job is dangerous. One such danger would be stealing or duplicating the
plans that LV intended the DEs to use in the heist. Possibly those
plans were in Lucius's possession since he was the leader of the
expedition. And Lucius would never suspect his friend Severus of using
those plans to help the Order. Just some thoughts on the relationship
between the floorplans and Snape's report.)
> 
Dana:
> How do you know Snape even knows LV's real name is Tom Riddle and 
that therefore the Riddle House belongs to him. You assume LV is 
staying there but there is no canon to support, he is still using  the
house. Just because he was there in GoF before he regained his body is
no proof, he still uses it and the room Harry's sees LV talk to
Rockwood in, does not remind him of the Frank Bryce murder. So there
is no proof he is still using the Riddle House as his hide out. 

Carol:
I didn't say anything about Snape's knowing that LV's real name is Tom
Riddle (though I imagine that he does know it because DD, who trusts
him completely, would know it, as would Snape's friend Lucius Malfoy,
who had Tom Riddle's diary in his possession). Nor do I actually
assume that he's still hiding there--I just didn't want to go into any
more details than necessary on a side note). I was merely offering a
plan of the Riddle House--or wherever LV is currently hiding out--as
an alternative to a plan of the DoM though that doesn't seem to fit
the plot of OoP. We don't *know* that the plan is of the DoM, only
that it appears to be the plan of a building. 

Snape is certainly familiar with the room in which LV spoke to
Rookwood ("What are that man and that room doing in your head,
Potter?"). So it doesn't matter whether LV is still hiding in the
Riddle House or not. Call it DE Headquarters or LV's hideout if you
prefer. I'm only saying that we should consider alternatives rather
than assuming that the floorplan is that of the DoM even though that
seems likely.

Again, I *agree with you* that the floorplan is *probably* that of the
DoM, perhaps provided to LV by Rookwood. The problem with that idea,
of course, is that Rookwood was one of the escapees from Azkaban and
could not have acquired the plan recently. For all we know, he could
have created the floorplan magically from memory much as MWPP created
their map of Hogwarts. Certainly, such floorplans aren't going to be
lying around the MoM for any employee or visitor to pick up. Snape had
to get it somewhere, and his stealing it from the DEs or LV would
certainly add to the excitement of his report.
 
Carol:
> > On another point, Alla mentioned Dumbledore's comment in GoF, "A
connection I could have made without help," in relation to the
Pensieve memory of Snape saying that his Dark Mark is growing darker
and adding, "Karkaroff's, too." It does sound as if DD is downplaying
the importance of Snape's revelation, and in front of Harry, too
(which I, for one, didn't like at all), but the memory does show the
reader that Snape is reporting to DD, and I don't think that DD could
have known about the Dark Mark itself growing darker without Snape's
telling him (he might have suspected it, but he couldn't have
confirmed it). The connection he could have made on his own relates to
Karkaroff: if Snape's [Dark mark] is growing darker, so is
Karkaroff's. <snip>
 
> Dana: 
> DD is not downplaying the information Snape gives him, about the 
Mark. It just did not add anything on what LV is planning. 

Carol:
My sense is that he's downplaying it. Your sense may be different.
That's a feeling we get as we read, not a provable point. As for
"planning," as far as DD and Snape knew, LV was still vapor at that
stage. What the darkening of Snape's Dark Mark indicated, though not
even DD could have known it at that time, was that Vapormort had
achieved physical form as a fetus. All that Snape and DD knew at that
time was that Vapormort was rumored to be in Albania and that Peter
Pettigrew, revealed as the traitor, had escaped and was likely to go
to him. DD suspected that the disappearances of Bertha Jorkins and
Frank Bryce were connected with Voldemort. 

Snape, teaching at Hogwarts and acting not as a spy so much as DD's
righthand man (though "Moody" partially usurps that role in GoF), had
obviously not returned to LV on DD's orders at that time, but he did
provide the one piece of information available to him, that his and
Karkaroff's Dark Marks were growing darker. That in itself would
confirm that LV was growing stronger and strengthen DD's suspicions
about the deaths. Beyond that, Snape, who was at Hogwarts, not
circulating among former DEs, could do nothing (except possibly report
Karkaroff's terror and intention to flee--and possibly keep an eye on
Harry or "Moody" or other suspicious characters). DD has, at that
point, no way of knowing what LV's plans are, or even that they're
connected with the Goblet of Fire. He may suspect a disguised DE in
their midst, but he has no proof, and no idea of the graveyard plan.
Neither, of course, does Snape. He has not yet returned to spy on LV
because LV himself has not yet been resurrected. and even after his
return, the information he can acquire on LV while he's at Hogwarts is
necessarily limited.

Dana:
> DD already knows LV is actively trying to comeback to Power. Harry 
tells DD about Trelawney's prediction about LV rising back to Power
with the help of his servant at the end of PoA.
> So it makes sense that Snape's Dark Mark is growing Darker because 
DD already KNOWS LV is going to be coming back. 
> 
Carol:
Dumbledore is not a great believer in Treawney's predictions, as we
see again in HBP. In any case, all that Prophecy predicted was that
the Dark Lord's servant would escape that night and return to him,
which, of course, did happen. Not very helpful. However, Snape's
showing DD the Dark Mark would give some indication of how strong LV
was at that point. "Greater and more powerful than ever" certainly did
not come to pass that night or even after the graveyard scene, which
has not yet occurred when Snape tells DD about the Dark Mark growing
darker. BTW, that incident is probably one of many clues that DD uts
in the Pensieve to figure out the connections between events. If DD
didn't think Snape's information was important and that it fit in with
the events he was studying to find out who put Harry's name in the GoF
and why, he would not have put it in the Pensieve. Also, that snippet
of a memory shows, along with other evidence, that Snape regularly
reports to Dumbledore and tells him anything that may be important
regarding Harry or LV. We just don't see those reports because the
books are presented from Harry's pov (which helps to keep Snape
mysterious). 

Dana:
> Even Sirius notices in GoF there is an extraordinary amount of DE
activity and rumours floating around about LV returning, Snape's
information adds nothing specific.

Carol:
Black certainly doesn't know about this activity firsthand since he's
either far away in the tropics or living as a dog in a cave in GoF. He
finds out about the DEs casting the Dark Mark and wreaking havoc at
the QWC from the Daily Prophet. Any other information he has comes
from his correspondence with DD--and notice how wrong he is about
Barty Crouch Jr. and Karkaroff. Black's primary function in the cave
scene is to provide a mixture of clues and red herrings--not useful
information on the activities of the Death Eaters. To be sure, Snape
can't provide useful information on the activities of the DEs either
at that point because LV is a fetus in Wormtail's care and neither the
DEs nor the Order have regrouped.

In OoP, Black never gets out of the house except to be seen on
Platform 9 3/4 by Lucius Malfoy, as Snape informs him. Black must be
getting his information (most of which he's not sharing with Harry)
from someone more informed. It makes sense that this information would
come from DD's spy among the Death Eaters, Snape. ("Yes, Potter, that
is my job.") Black is not going to give Harry and the other kids the
specific information that Dumbledore has ordered them to keep quiet
about! The kids, even Harry, are kept away from the Order meetings.
Mrs. Weasley is concerned that Black is telling them too much, even
with his lie about a "weapon." The Order members are all, including
Snape, hiding the existence of the Prophecy from Harry on DD's orders.
The fact that Sirius Black doesn't tell Harry the "rumours" he's heard
doesn't mean that Snape has not provided specific information in his
reports--plural. 

What Harry knows, and what the Order reveals to him, is inadequate as
a source of information as to what really goes on in those meetings.
Unfortunately for us, the narrator is reporting from Harry's point of
view so we don't know what information Snape is providing. But that he
*does* provide specific information, and that the other Order members
(except possibly Padfoot) find it significant, is evident from canon.
Would Snape give reports if he had nothing to say? Would the others
clamor to hear those reports if they weren't important or if they had
some other source for the same information? Would they gather
excitedly around him afterward (black no doubt excepted) if Snape were
giving them meaningless drivel? (I'd like to know what's on those
other scrolls, BTW, but I doubt we'll ever be told.) Black is not an
objective witness to the reports, in any case. Even if it were okay
with DD to reveal the contents of Snape's reports to the kids, which
it obviously isn't, Black isn't about to glorify Snape's information
and accomplishments to Harry. Ironically, he'd love to be risking his
life as Snape is doing--only maybe not among the DEs. And Lupin always
keeps what he knows to himself if he can. Harry isn't going to hear
about Snape's reports from Lupin any more than he's going to hear from
DD what Snape reports to him.
> 
Dana:
> You are implying that if DD took this information more seriously 
(and there is no indication he does not just that he didn't need it 
because he already knew) that he could have prevented the Graveyard
ordeal? How? 
> 
Carol:
What? I'm sorry. I'm confused. Where are you getting this idea? I said
nothing about Snape's Dark Mark preventing the graveyard ordeal.
Please don't put words in my mouth. All I said was that DD seems to
downplay the significance of Snape's words, but what he's actually
downplaying is the connection he could have made for himself, that
Karkaroff's Dark Mark is also growing darker. The very fact that the
memory of the conversation is in the Pensieve with everything else
related to the Goblet of Fire and the QWC incidents shows that DD does
think it's important.
 
Carol ear;ier:
> > We have evidence of other information that Snape must have 
provided to DD as DD has no other spy among the Death Eaters. In VW1,
he must have informed DD that LV was targeting the Potters. 
> 
Dana:
> Well I do not know if this can be correctly assumed because some 
people working as spies for DD could be dead now. It is certainly no 
proof that just because Snape is the only one now, he was the only one
then, besides Snape is not the only spy now either he is just the only
spy within LV's inner circles.

Carol:
I am not claiming anything as proof. What is provable need not be
argued. There's no point in arguing, for example, that Snape is an
Occlumens or that he can make the Wolfsbane Potion or perform the
countercurse to Sectumsempra. Those statements can be considered as
proven. However, the *evidence* we have (as opposed to *proof*)
certainly points to Snape as the one member of DD's extensive spy
network who could have provided this information, and it fits with
what we know of the tale of Snape's remorse (admittedly incomplete at
this point. I take Snape's words to Bellatrix in "Spinner's End with a
grain of salt. DDM!Snape is hardly going to tell her the truth.)

As for another spy within LV's inner circle, what other Death Eater
besides the traitor Peter Pettigrew, whom no one knew to be a DE,
could have spied for Dumbledore during VW1? What other DE or former DE
(not counting the untrustworthy coward Karkaroff, who doesn't report
to Dumbledore and the murderously deceitful Fake!Moody) ever taught at
Hogwarts and could work for Dumbledore directly, in constant contact
with him as teacher, HoH, and spy during the holidays? 

Sure, DD has spies in Knockturn Alley (Mundungus Fletcher) and the
Hog's Head (Aberforth) and probably other places, but not among the
Death Eaters. Look at the DEs we've seen, whether they were escapees
from Azkaban or not. Lucius Malfoy? Bellatrix and the Lestrange
brothers? Wormtail? Dolohov? Barty Jr.? Anyone in the MoM battle or at
Hogwarts on the day DD died? Is any of those people likely to be
providing DD with information? Or how about the dead Evan Rosier, who
took a chunk out of Mad-Eye Moody's nose because he was so loyal to LV
that he went down fighting? I suppose you could suggest that the
equally dead Wilkes, also killed by Aurors, provided DD with
information, but that's a long shot with no support in canon. Regulus
Black is the only possibility, and I don't think that he was a spy
because his conversion seems to have begun and ended with stealing the
Horcrux. "I trust Severus Snape completely" rather suggests that he
really was risking his life to provide important information as DD
testified to the Wizengamot that he was and Barty Sr., that merciless
sceptic, also believed. 
> 
Dana:
> Sirius in GoF is also aware of the increased DE activity and about 
the rumours about LV returning to power. With this I just want to 
indicate that information through other resources, can be just as 
valuable and still can add to the overall picture one can lay out
about enemy activity.  

Carol:
As I said earlier, Sirius Black in GoF is reading the Daily Prophet,
which reported the Muggle baiting and the Dark Mark at the QWC, and is
corresponding with Dumbledore. There's no DE activity directly related
to LV at that point because he hasn't returned yet. And BTW, I'm not
saying that Snape was reporting on the DEs at that time, either, only
working as usual at Hogwarts and aiding DD in other ways besides
teaching. He had not yet returned to the DE camp as a spy because LV
was still hiding in fetal form. So any new information on LV and his
plans was unattainable at that time.
> 
Dana:
> Besides it also seems Snape could not find out who the spy was 
within the inner circle of the marauders. It is not even implied DD 
got information there was a spy just that LV's actions seemed to 
indicate there was a spy, close to the Potters. 

Carol:
You're assuming that Severus was a member of the Order at that time. I
don't think he was since he's not in the photo of the old Order that
Moody showed Harry. I think he was spying for DD alone, and the fewer
people who knew about it, the better. (By the time the Wizengamot
learned about it in Karkaroff's hearing, LV had long since been
vaporized.)
> 
Dana:
> We also know that Snape only gave DD this information because he
owed James Potter a debt, not because he was so concerned with their
safety. 

Carol:
Know? We don't *know* any such thing. DD did not state his "ironclad"
reason for trusting Snape. As it happens, I agree that the debt that
Snape *felt* he owed to James played a part in his returning to DD and
in his protecting the Potters, but it would hardly be cause for the
*remorse* that DD believes he really felt. Occlumency can help a
wizard to conceal a lie, but, AFAWK, it can't help him fake a deep
emotion like remorse. You're mistaking your own assumptions for canon
here and elsewhere.

Dana:
It can still be read as Snape attempting to wash himself from
responsibility. So unless knew information on Snape's activity in the
first war comes to light in DH, then as it now stands he did not do
very much then either.  

Carol:
Sorry. I'm not following you. According to DD, young Snape discovered
how LV interpreted the Prophecy, went to Dumbledore, and spied for him
"at great personal risk." It appears to be on Snape's information that
DD recommended the Fidelius Charm to the Potters and offered himself
as their Secret Keeper. "Did not do much then either" simply does not
fit with canon as presented by Dumbledore or with DD's continued trust
in Snape.
 
Carol earlier:
> > Dumbledore trusts Snape, and that trust seems deeper and stronger
than ever in HBP. That would surely be the case only if Snape  really
was risking his life to provide information that no one else could
provide and at the same time concealing important information (such as
his sending or the Order to the MoM and the real nature of
Dumbledore's "serious injury" and his own role in preventing it from
being fatal).
> 
> Dana:
> Personally I do not read DD's actions in HBP as his trust in Snape 
being stronger then ever, it seems he has more and more trouble to 
convince himself that he is indeed trustworthy and that he has 
trouble to be called on this mistake by Harry. We never see DD argue
with Snape before while we have lots of examples Snape is arguing with
DD. 
> 
Carol responds:
"I am sure. I trust Severus Snape completely" (HBP Am. ed. 549). "It
is Professor Snape whom I need" (580). "Severus . . . I need Severus"
(580). "Go and wake Severus. Tell him what has happened and bring him
to me. Do nothing else, speak to nobody else, and do not remove your
cloak. I shall wait here" (583). (To Draco) "It so happens that I
trust Professor Snape" (588).

Read those remarks any way you like, but IMO they not only imply but
in two cases directly state DD's trust in Snape, a deeper trust than
we've yet seen. They state it directly. In earlier books, DD also
says, "I trust Professor Snape," and we see reasons why he does so. In
HBP, Dumbledore *depends* on Snape--*and* he gives him the cursed DADA
position that Harry believes has been withheld from him because DD
doesn't trust him. Clearly, he does. He puts his life (and perhaps his
death) in Snape's hands. 

Trouble convincing himself that the man who sent the Order to the MoM,
who saved him from the ring Horcrux, who later saved Katie's and
Draco's lives, is trustworthy? I think you're reading backwards from
the tower, assuming that Snape is a murdering traitor and therefore DD
either doesn't really trust Snape despite his telling Harry that he
trusts him *completely* or is a fool to do so.

I don't know what you mean about the reader never seeing DD arguing
with Snape but seeing Snape arguing with DD. Dumbledore is the boss.
He's in charge. Snape occasionally expresses dissenting opinions,
which he probably would *not* do if he were disloyal but wanting to
appear loyal, but DD usually silences them. In HBP, Snape may well be
right that DD is "taking too much for granted," especially if what
he's taking for granted is that Draco can't get DEs into the school. 

Not even Harry overhears the argument in the forest. It's reported
incompletely and at secondhand by Hagrid. Harry assumes the worst, but
Harry may well be wrong. JKR is tantalizing us with fragments that are
open to various interpretations. But based on previous overheard
conversations, I'd say the chances of Harry being right are slim. And
I think we can simply dismiss Hagrid's opinion about Snape being
overworked. He *is* overworked, at least by my Muggle standards, but
that's not the problem. The problem is Draco and whether he can or
should be stopped. Snape may be saying that it's better for him to die
from the Unbreakable Vow than to let Draco keep on doing what he's
doing in the RoR. We just don't know, but arguing with DD is not
evidence of disloyalty. Harry does it, too.

Dana:
> You know I was thinking about why the Order was no longer patrolling
the DoM and then suddenly it occurred to me. Because there was no need
for it anymore. Snape told DD about Harry's vision that Rockwood told
LV about the protection on the prophecy and that it would mean that
only 3 people could retrieve it. DD himself, LV himself or Harry. DD
was not going to hand it over, it would be unlikely LV would come to
get it himself and because the Order has no information that LV would
be able to use Harry to get it for him, there is no reason to assume
he can get to Harry because he is safely at Hogwarts. 

Carol:
That's an interesting idea, which I'll return to in a moment. And it
sounds as if you're beginning to see why Snape didn't take immediate
action in OoP other than to confirm that Sirius Black was safely at
Headquarters (and relay the information that Harry believed Black had
been captured, as he must have done or Black would have wondered why
Snape was asking this question). And we keep pointing out that Harry
had no broom, couldn't Apparate, and was (seemingly safely) in
Umbridge's custody, so the likelihood of his leaving the safety of
Hogwarts, whether he wanted to or not, was extremely slim. (Snape
could not have anticipated the timely appearance of the Thestrals
responding to Grawp's blood.)
 
Dana:
> It is interesting that Harry never told Snape about what he heard 
Rockwood tell LV and visa versa but DD does imply that the 
information came from Harry himself during the DoM aftermath 
conversation. 

Carol:
When does DD imply that the information came from Harry? He simply
indicates that he knows this information without revealing its source,
and Harry, who is preoccupied with his godfather's death, isn't
thinking about how DD would know this, but, as I'll show in a moment,
the source has to be Snape.

Dana:
Snape only saw a man sitting on his knees in a certain room (in the
second occlumency lesson)and then responds with the remark that it is
not up to Harry to know what LV is telling his DE's. 

Carol:
You're skipping most of the scene here. Actually, Snape asks Harry
what that memory was and then uses Legilimency on him ("Snape's dark
eyes bored into Harry's," OoP Am. ed. 590). He then asks Harry how
"that man and that room" come to be in his head. Harry, avoiding
Snape's eyes, tells him that it was a dream. Snape has Harry remind
him why they're there and asks how many other dreams Harry has had
about the Dark Lord. Harry's answer, "Just that one," is obviously a
lie and Snape knows it since Harry told Snape during the first lesson
that he's been dreaming of the DoM corridor "for months" (539),
information that Snape surely passes on to DD since it could have come
from no other source (see below). And in case we miss the point that
Harry is lying, the narrator states it directly ("'Just that one,'
lied Harry"). 

Only after Harry lies to Snape does Snape resort to wondering aloud
whether "these visions and dreams" (astute deduction on Snape's part
that they're not all dreams) make Harry feel special and important and
suggest that Harry wants to keep having them--which, as it happens, is
quite true. And *then* Snape tells Harry that it's not up to him to
find out what LV is saying to his Death Eaters (again, quite true).
Harry thinks he's crossed a line when he asks whether that's Snape's
job, but Snape says calmly, with a satisfied expression, "Yes, Potter.
That is my job." (He's glad, I think, that Potter has figured it out
without his having to say so). 

But you're missing Snape's concern that Harry is having these visions
and dreams that belong to Voldemort (the only times during the lessons
when he becomes really angry or disconcerted) and the obvious
implication that he's reporting the lessons to DD, who could not
otherwise know what Harry is seeing and dreaming.

You're forgetting that Harry isn't speaking with DD all year except on
rare occasions. DD testifies at Harry's trial but avoids Harry's eyes.
He looks past him when Harry has the snake dream. When their eyes do
meet, Harry feels that he's the snake and wants to bite him. DD has
Snape give Harry the Occlumency lessons because he's afraid that LV
will use Harry in some dangerous way. Harry, in turn, refuses to tell
DD about Umbridge's horrific detentions because of DD's seeming
coldness or indifference. They see each other again after the DA
fiasco, when DD takes the "blame" for Dumbledore's Army. DD then
leaves the school and Harry has no idea where he is until the night of
the MoM battle. There's simply no opportunity for Harry to tell DD
about his vision of Rookwood.

It has to be Snape who tells DD about seeing Rookwood kneeling in
front of LV in one of Harry's fleeting memories during the Occlumency
lessons. How much Snape could have heard Rookwood say is unclear.
Since the memories appear to Harry as "a rush of images and sound"
(590), Snape may well have heard a small part of the conversation. But
the memory seems to be only a flash, enough for Snape to see a man he
recognizes as Rookwood kneeling in a darkened room that he also
recognizes. And that much he has clearly reported to Dumbledore. How
DD could know what Rookwood and LV were talking about is unclear. 
We don't know to what extent Snape was in on LV's plans (he certainly
didn't know about Kreacher), but Lucius Malfoy could have confided the
plot to trick Harry into going to the MoM as a result of Rookwood's
information to LV. But, in any case, the source of *DD's* information
about Rookwood and LV has to be Snape. It can't be Harry. (BTW, it's
Rookwood, not Rockwood, FWIW.) 

Dana:
If this is right then Snape knew about what was said in the 
conversation and he forgot to mention, LV telling Rockwood he had a
new plan to get it. <snip>

Carol:
As I said earlier, it's unclear how much Snape heard in relation to
Harry's Rookwood memory, but I doubt that he heard enough of the
conversation to determine that Rookwood was telling LV that the
Prophecy orb can only be touched by the subjects of the Prophecy. If,
however, he did hear this information, he certainly didn't "forget" to
tell Dumbledore since DD knows what the Rookwood conversation is
about. Either DD's detailed knowledge is a Flint, or Snape told DD all
he knew, which must be more than Harry realized. As I said, *Harry*
didn't tell DD about the Rookwood visions or his dreams of the
corridor. Snape has to be DD's source of information for the
revelations of the Occlumency lessons. It can't be anyone else.

You could be right about the reason that no one was guarding the
Prophecy being the realization that no one could pick up the Prophecy
orb other than Harry or LV, but that seems like information that DD,
at least, would know already. But if the Order members took it upon
themselves to stop guarding the Prophecy for this reason, that's
actually a lucky thing for the Order because the guard would have been
Imperio'd or killed facing twelve DEs. (BTW, the inadequate security
provisions at the MoM are rather troubling in themselves. Do we ever
find out what happened to Eric, the security wizard who's not at his
desk when Harry and his friends arrive? Maybe someone else works the
night shift, but still, the desk should have been manned.)

Carol, who is rather partial to the idea that the door *was* being
guarded by Emmeline Vance and would like to hear more about that
theory from the person who posted it