Snape the Spy (WAS Re: Who was responsible for Sirius' death? ...)

[justcarol67]

No: HPFGUIDX 167745

houyhnhnm wrote:
> > Harry doesn't know that Snape went back to LV when he comes to GP
in August.  Where are you getting that?
> <snip>
> 
Dana kindly supplied the canon:
> 
> 'Severus,' said Dumbledore, turning to Snape, "you know what I must
ask you to do. If you are ready... If you are prepared...'
> 
> 'I am', said Snape.
> 
> End quote from canon.
> 
> This was in front of Harry in the hospital wing. Do you really think
Harry is too stupid to understand what DD is asking of Snape?

Carol responds:
Stupidity has nothing to do with it. He canonically wonders what Snape
was sent to do:

"What was it that Snape had done on Dumbledore's orders, the night
that Voldemort had returned? And why . . . why . . . was Dumbledore so
convinced that Snape was ttruly on their side? He had been their spy,
Dumbledore had said so in the Pensieve. Snape had turned spy against
Voldemort 'at great personal risk.' Was that the job he had taken up
again? Had he made contact with the Death Eaters, perhaps? Pretended
that he had never gone over to Dumbledore, that he had been, like
Voldemort himself, biding his time?" (GoF Am. ed. 721, "The
Beginning"). Harry comes close here, but he doesn't know. And, by
having him ask himself these questions and repeat the information
about spying "at great personal risk," JKR is emphasizing their
importance. Snape and his loyalties are central to the plot of the
series as a whole, and the phrase "at great personal risk," which even
Harry (who hates and distrusts Snape) remembers, is also important.

Dana:
> He is not sending Snape to gather Order Members because he has just
send Sirius to do that. And he just witnessed Snape show Fudge his
Dark Mark. 

Carol:
Exactly. He's sending Snape to do something much more dangerous than
visiting Lupin and Mrs. Figg and Mundungus Fletcher, as his own
silence and Snape's pale face and glittering eyes testify. But Snape
*is* prepared, and he silently sweeps out of the room to do what he
must do. And, unlike the DEs whose sole crime in LV's is not going to
look for him and restore him to a body, Snape risks much more than a
Crucio. If LV doesn't believe his lies and half-truths, the same ones
that he tells Bellatrix (and notice that she's not fully convinced),
he will die as Regulus died. His only hope must be LV's egotistical
belief that no Occlumens is sufficiently skilled to lie to him, the
greatest Legilimens of all time, without detection. Occlumency, and
his skills as an actor and a liar, is all that lies between Snape and
death. And, of course, he will have to provide some carefully selected
information on Dumbledore and perhaps on Harry to persuade LV that he
is truly LV's man.
> 
Dana, quoting again:
> 
> `At least you've known what's been going on,' he (Harry) said 
bracingly.
> 
> `Oh yeah,' said Sirius sarcastically. Listening to Snape's reports,
having to take all his snide hints that he's out there risking his 
life while I'm sat on my backside here having a nice comfortable time

> 
Carol responds:
Sirius Black's backbiting jealousy proves nothing except that Snape
*is* risking his life (Black doesn't question that) and giving reports
(which we already knew). We see just how important the other Order
members think Snape's reports are in "Number Twelve, Grimmauld Place":

"[Mrs. Weasley] turned to the gang of wizards behind [Harry] and
whispered urgently, 'He's just arrived. The meeting's started . . . .'

"The wizards behind Harry all made noises of interest and excitement
and began filing toward the door" (OoP Am. ed. 61).

The kids, as Mrs. Weasley informs Harry, are not allowed to attend
these meetings, so Harry goes upstairs to join Ron and Hermione. The
Twins show up, having failed to find out anything about Snape's "top
secret" report (69). After the meeting, HRH look over the banister and
see "the gloomy hallway . . . packed with witches and wizards,
including all of Harry's guard [which means that Lupin is among them].
 They were whispering excitedly together. In the very center of the
group Harry saw the dark, greasy-haired head and prominent nose of his
least favorite teacher, Professor Snape. Harry leaned farther over the
banisters. He was very interested in what Snape was doing for the
Order of the Phoenix" (76). So, it appears, is the crowd of witches
and wizards around Snape, whose report must have more than met their
expectations to receive such a response. But, of course, Harry doesn't
learn anything about the meeting, except to glimpse the scrolls,
including the building plan (surely the DoM?), that have been left behind.

Dana: 
> Sirius already mentions Snape is giving reports so Lupin could just
have mentioned one of these reports gave the Order some very 
interesting information on what LV planning on next. 

> First both of Sirius and Lupin say this about LV's activity.
[OoP quote] 
> `That's because there haven't been any funny death yet', said 
> Sirius, `not as far as we know, anyway 
 and we know quite a lot.'
<snip>

Carol:
Exactly. And since the Order has only one spy on LV and the Death
Eaters, the source of this information has to be Snape and his reports. 

Dana quoting again: 
> `Working as hard as we can to make sure Voldermort *can't carry out 
> his plans*,' said Sirius.
> 
> `How d'you know what his plans are?' Harry asked quickly.
> 
> Dumbledore's got a shrewd idea, said Lupin, and Dumbledore's shrewd 
> ideas normally turn out to be accurate.'
> 
Carol responds:
I don't know what your point is, but Lupin is much more close-mouthed
about the Order's activities than Black, and he's not about to
endanger Snape by revealing to a bunch of teenagers who have been shut
out from the meetings what was said at those meetings. They are, after
all, top secret and only Order members are allowed to know what
happens there. I think that Lupin's words, "Dumbledore has a shrewd
idea," are intended to stop Sirius from saying that the source of
their information is Snape's reports. Dumbledore's "shrewd ideas"
probably stem from the info he has been given by Snape. Where else
could they come from? He has not other spy among the DEs. And what,
exactly, have all those reports been about, if not about Voldemort's
plans? What else could they be? 
> 
Dana:
> Then at the second occlumency lesson (or at least the one on page) 
> Snape says this to Harry (please don't forget no one mentioned to 
> Harry Snape was spying on LV)
> 
> `That is just as well Potter,'said Snape coldly, `because you are 
> neither special nor important, and it is not up to you to find out 
> what the Dark Lord is saying to his Death Eaters.'
> 
> No- that's *your job*, isn't it? Harry shot at him [end quote] <snip>
> 

Carol responds:
I would add one more line to your last quote: "Yes, Potter. That is my
job." And Snape seems satisfied, almost happy for Snape, that the
usually rather dense Potter has figured this out.

At any rate, thank you for the excellent support refuting your own
point of view. It doesn't matter whether Harry immediately figured out
the danger that Snape was going into at the end of GoF. What matters
is that he is, indeed, going into danger, and that he and DD have
planned that he do so ("If you are ready; if you are prepared").
Clearly, Snape must have planned all the cover stories he would need
to tell Voldemort: plausible reasons why he would try to thwart
Quirrell and save Harry's life without being disloyal to LV and why he
did not immediately return when he felt the Dark Mark burn, among
others. His pale face and glittering eyes and Dumbledore's prolonged
silence after he leaves show that they both know the terrible danger
he is facing. (BTW, showing the Dark Mark to Fudge to prove that LV
has returned is a rather strange action for either OFH!Snape or
ESE!Snape, don't you thinK? That in itself was dangerous. He could
have been arrested as a DE, and he revealed a secret that McGonagall
and Madam Pomfrey and Mrs. Weasley apparently didn't know until that
point, that he had been a Death Eater.)

Obviously, Snape *is* supplying important information to Dumbledore
when he has the opportunity. However, his opportunites for actually
obtaining information from the Death Eaters or LV directly appear to
be limited to the summer holidays and Christmas, where his job for LV
is to obtain information on Dumbledore. 

And, sorry, but Sirius Black doesn't tell Dumbledore about the
corridor dreams. What Harry tells his godfather is that in DD's
office, he felt like a snake and thought he was going to attack
Dumbledore (OoP Am. ed. 481, the St. Mungo's chapter)--not a word on
the dreams. That information comes from Snape.

So, through detective work--picking up the scattered clues--we can
figure out what Harry does not: Snape is, indeed, giving Dumbledore
valuable information. No doubt there's a lot more that we don't know
about--DD never tells Harry any more than he needs to know, and DD is
also trying to protect Snape. If LV knows about the Occlumency lessons
and is somehow watching or listening in or has access to Harry's
thoughts on the matter, the less Harry knows about Snape, the better.

And, of course, if DD told Harry straight out what Snape is doing for
the Order or Harry knew about it in any other way (e.g., listening in
on Snape's report, which the Order members clearly thought was
important), Snape would cease to be mysterious and ambiguity. And
Snape's loyalties must be kept in doubt until the big confrontation,
which I suspect will involve a dramatic reversal of what Harry "knows"
about Snape. Otherwise, where's the bang and what's the point?

Dana: 
> It was also Harry's own information about Rookwood telling LV about 
> the protection on the prophecy that Snape tells to DD. DD never 
> mentioned Snape giving any important information directly from LV 
> himself, just information about what Harry was dreaming. Nothing and 
> then goes on about Snape's actions of that night. <snip>

Carol responds:
Canon, please? When does Harry, who avoids DD all year and vice versa
because DD won't look at him, tell DD about Rookwood? The source of
DD's information has to be Snape.

Carol, who has to stop in midpost because she has company but hopes
that she has made her point