[HPforGrownups] Re: Will the Real Severus Snape please step forward?

[Magpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 167773

>> Magpie:
>> But Dumbledore isn't reacting to anything. He's got no reason to
> think Snape
>> has betrayed him. Snape's only just walked in when Dumbledore
> starts
>> pleading, and the "Severus, please," is a continuation of that. I
> think all
>> the impressions of the characters we get in this scene are
> carefully chosen
>> to tell us what's going on, even if we don't get it yet. Since
> Dumbdore is
>> said to be pleading and then says words that are pleading, I think
> we have
>> to go with the pleading, pleading that can't, as far as I see, be
> in
>> response to Dumbledore realizing that Snape has betrayed him
> because there's
>> no moment for him to have that realization.
> <SNIP>
>
> Alla:
>
> Is there no time for Dumbledore to realise that Snape had betrayed
> him though?

Magpie:
Not that I can see, no. Not if Dumbledore didn't think he'd betrayed him 
earlier. All Snape does is walk into the room. In terms of conflict, it's 
would a huge jump of a conflict rather than a rising one. Snape's got every 
reason to be walking into the room--Dumbledore even wanted him there moments 
before. This would be a major revelation for Dumbledore here. It would show.

Alla:
>
> See that is the reason why I am not buying this argument - there are
> pretty good indications that Dumbledore is a strong Legilimenc as
> well, yes?
>
> Snape is **there** on the scene. Do we know that Legilimency only
> works when you look subject in the eye? I mean, we had been shown
> that it often works like that, but we specifically had not been
> given explanations how it works in details, IMO.

Magpie:
Luckily Snape's a superb Occlumens, which cancels that out.:-)  And even if 
he wasn't, we don't see Dumbledore have any sort of revelation. There's no 
dawning horror. Even if this were happening silently it would still be 
happening.

I do think we do have to go with the "eye contact" idea since it seemed to 
be established in OotP--again, luckily imo, because all Legilimancy would do 
in that scene would mean they would have to go through the exact same 
transition, but in silence. It doesn't, imo, let us skip over important 
transitions.

Alla:>
> So, what I am trying to say is that I think that it is very possible
> that strong Legilimenc can pick up subject emotional state without
> looking him in the eyes.

Magpie:
My two problems with this are that first, there's still no sign of 
Dumbledore transitioning from relief or whatever he was supposed to feel 
when he saw Snape, to horror at his betrayal. If he's been betrayed by 
Snape, that's a big thing. Imagine if this were Harry and Ron in the scene 
if Harry was the brilliant Legimens. Even if he "picked up on" Ron's 
emotional state, would he really flip that quickly, straight from relief at 
seeing Ron to pleading with him to kill him?

And secondly, I think it would be incredibly lame.:-) I don't mean your 
suggestion that Dumbledore has been betrayed is lame, but that writing the 
scene that way would be. And completely in conflict with the way JKR usually 
writes her scenes. Think, for instance, of scenes where Harry realizes he's 
been betrayed in GoF. It takes him a series of steps to come to accept that 
Moody is a bad guy, and that Ron is picking a fight.

I don' t think JKR would handwave over that important a moment in a scene by 
saying Dumbledore just knows Snape's a traitor now where 10 seconds ago he 
didn't. If it was writen via Legilimancy, I think she'd write it so that we 
didn't need the words.

Alla:
> Wearing emotions on his sleeve, anyone? Maybe Snape emotional state
> was like smell coming from him, etc.

Magpie:
Not according to canon. He just walks in and sweeps his gaze around the 
room. The narrator/Harry immediately notices something different about 
Dumbledore, but Snape looks just as usual at first. Plus, while something 
like "really angry" might come off him like a bad smell, I don't think "I 
have just betrayed my mentor and decided to side back with these guys I used 
to be with" is clear enough to be an emotion.

That's not to say I'm right about what side Snape's on--I don't have my own 
detailed version of what's going on in the scene to go up against it. I just 
don't see how Dumbledore realizing he's been betrayed in this scene 
happened.

-m