Snape the Spy (WAS Re: Who was responsible for Sirius' death? ...)

[Dana]

No: HPFGUIDX 167811

Carol:
> Dumbledore is not a great believer in Treawney's predictions, as we
> see again in HBP. In any case, all that Prophecy predicted was that
> the Dark Lord's servant would escape that night and return to him,
> which, of course, did happen. Not very helpful. 
<snip>

Dana:

POA Pg 238 UKed Paperback

The Dark Lord will rise again with his servant's aid, greater and 
more terrible then before. 

Pg 311 UKed

`She said the servant was going to help him come back to power.' 
Harry stared up at Dumbledore.

Was it – was she making a real prediction? 

Do you know Harry, I think she might have been,' he said 
thoughtfully. Who'd have thought it? That brings her real predictions 
up to two.

End quote canon.

She did not only predict the servant went back to LV but that he also 
would help in back to power. 
And Harry tells this to DD and so he knows. The Dark Mark appearing 
at the Word Cup was also an indication of this. The DEs fled the 
scene after seeing it, so it was not set by them and it was with 
Harry's wand and Barty Crouch Sr's house elf. 

DD did not need Snape mentioning his Dark Mark information to 
understand that DEs all around the country were becoming restless and 
that rumors had began to spread. DD could have made the link about LV 
becoming stronger without Snape mentioning his Mark growing darker 
and so why he mentions it.  

You imply that Sirius got his information from DD while DD could not 
even send the guy something to eat. I think it was the other way 
around, Sirius picking up on rumors and informing DD about it. DD was 
at Hogwarts while Sirius pretended to be a loveable stray, I think it 
was easier for him to pick up on things then for DD. 

DD was looking in the pencieve to see what he was missing because 
someone from the inside had put Harry's name into the Goblet and he 
must have had some idea about LV's come back and Harry being entered 
in the tournament somehow being linked, just not know how they where 
linked. He was looking at DD's memories of Barty Crouch Sr and they 
were both related to Karkaroff and the reason Crouch fell from grace 
with the general public after his son was caught as a DE and died. 
Crouch suddenly not attending the tournament seemed to be linked and 
also Bertha was Crouch employee. It had nothing to do with Snape or 
his dark mark growing stronger.  

Sirius had witnesses Barty Crouch JR being buried by Dementors, how 
could he possibly know that it was actually his mother? If Bertha 
hadn't found out by visiting Crouch house, no one would have known 
not even LV. It was a clue that this would become important later and 
why DD was looking at memories related to Crouch as well. Sirius did 
make the connection that all was somehow related to Crouch and he was 
right in that wasn't he? Because it was Crouch who swapped his wife 
for his son and had kept his son in hiding all those years and it was 
Bertha, finding out his secret, that made it possible for LV to find 
this out too. 

The pensieve scene was by the way after Sirius conversation with 
Harry not before because Harry did not know Snape had been a DE yet 
or he would have told Sirius about it. I do not think Sirius got his 
information from DD, Sirius got part of it from Harry and made the 
links himself. 

Carol: 
> In OoP, Black never gets out of the house except to be seen on
> Platform 9 3/4 by Lucius Malfoy, as Snape informs him. Black must be
> getting his information (most of which he's not sharing with Harry)
> from someone more informed. It makes sense that this information 
would
> come from DD's spy among the Death Eaters, Snape. ("Yes, Potter, 
that
> is my job.") Black is not going to give Harry and the other kids the
> specific information that Dumbledore has ordered them to keep quiet
> about! The kids, even Harry, are kept away from the Order meetings.
> Mrs. Weasley is concerned that Black is telling them too much, even
> with his lie about a "weapon." The Order members are all, including
> Snape, hiding the existence of the Prophecy from Harry on DD's 
orders.
> The fact that Sirius Black doesn't tell Harry the "rumours" he's 
heard
> doesn't mean that Snape has not provided specific information in his
> reports--plural. 

Dana:
I'm not certain where you are going with this because the rumors, I 
was referring to, was about what Sirius said in GoF and not OotP and 
thus when Sirius was still free to go outside and pick up on 
information himself. 

And in hindsight Sirius was the only one that was right about wanting 
to tell Harry everything he should know, wasn't he? 
Everybody is so focused on Sirius supposedly being so reckless and 
not knowing what was good for Harry, while actually all could have 
been prevented if Harry would have been in the know. He was the only 
one that thought treating Harry like Harry and not like some innocent 
child that needs protection, was the right way to go. Because 
according to all others it was not up to Harry and in the end, it was 
precisely what Harry did and had always done. Maybe the bad Godfather 
knew his godson better then the rest of them, even if his mental 
state failed him on occasions. And to be honest I think he certainly 
knew Snape better then the rest of them and was not afraid to call 
him on it while others just followed DD like blind sheep but again I 
have no problem if you can call me bias. 

Besides Snape is not the only one reporting to HQ and I am sorry if I 
get you wrong but you seemed to think Snape is the only one actually 
doing anything? He might think he is but he is certainly not and all 
of them are risking there lives not just Snape (or actually even more 
then Snape because we do not see Snape in any mortal peril while we 
see Arthur almost dying, Emmyline Vance died and Sirius died). Remus 
is away on specific Order business for periods of time, Arthur and 
the other MoM employees keep them up to date on what the MoM is up to 
and there are many other Order members we do not actually see but it 
is a lot to assume they are just there to fill up the room a bit and 
have come to see the show. You cannot win the war with just one 
person and come to think of it in my opinion putting too much trust 
in this so-called brilliant spy was precisely what caused disaster to 
strike because the so-called super spy, who came through so 
brilliantly, could not even deliver information on LV's new plan. It 
makes you wonder why just a few months later Snape has suddenly moved 
up in ranks with LV, is it just because there was no one left to fill 
that spot and why he is now LV's main man? I do not think so but 
maybe I am just too blind to see what a wonderful brilliant spy Snape 
actually is. 

Come to think of it Snape should have been death by sending the Order 
and ruining LV's plan because LV knew there was no other Order Member 
left at Hogwarts to report, Harry, went to the DoM but we actually 
see that Snape is still on LV's good side. Mhhh makes you think 
doesn't it but you will probably say there is no proof LV knew that, 
well I think he did know and why he choose that specific time to 
plant the vision because I think he was also responsible for getting 
Hagrid out of Hogwarts by having Lucius rub Umbridge the right way 
and he just got lucky McGonagall was take out at the same time, saved 
him a lot of trouble. Now there was just Snape and he conveniently 
lost Harry out of his sight for several hours. You might think LV 
could not have known Harry being caught by Umbridge but I think he 
could because why did Kreacher hurt Buckbeak to get Sirius away from 
the kitchen, if he did not count on Harry trying to check in on 
Sirius? I believe he was planning on Harry getting expelled and 
thrown out of Hogwarts. Hermione just changed the plan slightly but 
still it turned out to be nothing to worry about.    

Carol:
> But that he *does* provide specific information, and that the other 
Order members
> (except possibly Padfoot) find it significant, is evident from 
canon.
<snip>

Dana:
Please provide canon evidence of the *significant* information you 
are referring to because we only hear Snape giving reports and DD 
mentioning Snape getting information from Harry, otherwise we see no 
proof about information specifically provided by Snape. Every 
information is significant, Snape's information is not more important 
(all thought it could have been if he actually had provided new 
information, instead of confirming that what was already known) then 
the information provided by others. Even Hagrid's information on the 
Giants and Bill's information on the Goblins is very important.  

Carol:
> Would Snape give reports if he had nothing to say? 
<snip>

Dana:
Of course he would because he needs to keep his cover, he can't 
pretend to work for the Order and then not provide them with any 
information at all but it does not have to mean the information has 
to be of any significance and so he brings to the table absolutely 
nothing, that we see anyway, that makes the Order able to remain one 
step ahead of LV and just because Lucius messed up and not get out 
before the Order arrives still is no proof Snape tried to thwart LV's 
plan. 

To be honest with you, for me there is canon evidence JKR left in 
OotP about Snape's true loyalties. The whole Rookwood topic is the 
clue to Snape not being DDM. He is not LV's man either because he 
does not risk Order information that could blow his cover with the 
Order but he is definitely not DDM. Snape is only loyal to one person 
and that is himself.  

I will write a separate post with all what I perceive as relevant 
canon to support my above claim. It will not be enough for those that 
have made up their minds about Snape being DDM but at least there is 
real canon supporting Snape being out for himself and for himself 
alone and that he is a person that would never risk his own life not 
even in HBP but I have to work it out and it will take some time so 
to be continued. 

All just my humble opinion. 

Dana