Who was responsible for Sirius' death? ...

[justcarol67]

No: HPFGUIDX 167588

Alla wrote:
<snip>
> Okay, I am going to take my temperature after I am typing this :), 
> but I am not sure I agree. <snip>

Carol responds:
LOL! Hope you're feeling better. 

Alla: 
> But if we look only at situation at hand, I am not sure what else 
Snape could have done differently. I mean if he is LID or evil and 
Neri's argument about wasted time is correct, then sure, here we have
another one of Snape sins, for which I am keeping my fingers 
> crossed he will suffer in book 7.
> 
> But if he is DD!M Snape, I am not sure how he could have kept Harry
 from going to the Ministry.
> 
> I mean, isn't it taking away Harry's most endearing quality ( as I
see it)? Harry will not stand for loved ones being in danger, real or
imaginary. One of many things I adore him for, so I do not know, I
think even if Snape tied him up, I think he would have gone to save
Sirius anyways.
 
Carol responds:
Thank you for your objectivity here. And I think you're right. Once
Harry checked on Black at 12 GP and was deceived by Kreacher into
thinking that his godfather had been kidnapped and was being tortured,
nothing was going to stop him--unless, of course, he thought to check
with Snape and see what he had found out. But he didn't do that
because he believed Kreacher.

Snape, meanwhile, knew nothing of Kreacher's treachery. It would have
been difficult to find out much of anything after he determined that
Black was safe (and presumably explained why he had checked on him in
the first place). *Somehow* he found out that Harry and Hermione had
gone into the forest with Umbridge. I can only assume that he went
back to Umbridge's office to check on the situation and discovered the
Inquisitorial Squad members covered with bats and hex marks, a few of
them unconscious. So, after straightening that out, he'd have
questioned Draco or Pansy and found out about the Forbidden Forest
excursion. He would then, presumably, escort the Squad to the hospital
wing, make sure they stayed there, and then wait for Harry and Co to
return from the forest. Snape would know that Umbridge had confiscated
Harry's broom and that he could not Apparate. He would know that they
had gone into the forest wandless, in the company of Umbridge, who
would hardly let them escape to the MoM. And he would probably think
that someone like Hermione would talk common sense into Harry. *Of
course* Black was not being held hostage. He'd confirmed that himself.
So he only became worried when they didn't return from the forest. At
that point, he began to suspect that they had, against all odds, found
some means of leaving the Hogwarts grounds undetected and actually
gone to the MoM. Either that, or they were still in the forest and in
danger from Acromantulas and Centaurs and whatever else was in there.
And at that point, he contacted the Order, telling Black to stay
behind and wait for Dumbledore. I agree with Alla. He did everything
he could possibly have done given that he didn't know about Kreacher.

Alla:
> <snip>
> He was? Well, yeah, I guess he was if one compares Snape's first
lesson with Occlumency lessons. I do not compare the Occlumency
lessons with vicious attack of the animal, as I compare Snape first 
lesson with. Snape, was actually answering some of Harry questions.
Maybe it has to do something with Dumbledore having an eye of the 
lessons since he was the one who ordered them? But no IMO Snape's 
efforts were not even close to being adequate. It was still abuse IMO,
just of the lesser degree. Oh, and I do not think that Snape 
> was answering Harry's questions truthfully, either, so I do not know 
> what is worse - flat out lie or lie by omission.
> 
> "You are neither special nor important"? Right, that is from the man 
> who delivered the Prophecy.
> 
Carol responds:
I agree with zgirnius that Snape told Harry everything he needed to
know: What Occlumency is, what Legilimency is, why he had to take the
lessons. The only thing he concealed is what DD wanted concealed, the
Prophecy in the DoM. He allowed Harry to use any spell he chose to
protect himself but encouraged him to use his mind instead, pointing
out that he had done exactly that with the Imperius Curse. He was, for
Snape, remarkably calm, becoming seriously upset or concerned only
when the memories revealed by his Legilimens spell were Voldemort's.
And clearly he reported those Voldemortian memories to DD, who
mentions them in his end-of-the book talk. It was Harry who didn't
practice, in part because he distrusted Snape and in part because he
wanted to keep having those dreams, Harry whose violation of Snape's
trust by entering the Pensieve ended the lessons, which would
otherwise have resumed the following day. Snape had, in fact, already
rescheduled the lesson.

Yes, "you are neither special nor important" is mean and snarky, but
it's Snape (who may really believe that Harry is "mediocre in the last
degree," as he tells Bellatrix in "Spinner's End"). But he also says,
"For a first attempt, that is not as bad as it would have been."And
for Snape, that is high praise.

Can you give me an example of a lie that you think Snape told during
the Occlumency lessons, other than concealing the existence of the
Prophecy orb in the DoM on Dumbledore's orders? (Calling it a
"weapon," as Sirius Black did, is actually a more direct lie, however
well-intentioned.) It seems to me that Snape gave a very careful,
truthful, and exact definition of Occlumency and Legilimency. I
believe that he was telling the truth when he said "Yes, Potter, that
is my job," and when he said that it was possible for a skilled
Occlumens to lie to LV without detection--as he himself has been doing
as least since LV returned and probably in the days before GH when he
was spying for DD "at great personal risk" as well. and, of course, a
question such as "How did that man [Rookwood] and that room [at the
Riddle house?] get into your head" hardly constitute lies. IMO, they
reveal real concern at the extent to which Voldemort has penetrated
Harry's mind, giving him dreams or memories that are not his own,
dreams and memories which, as I said, Snape reports to Dumbledore.

Alla:
> 
> I think Snape schoolboy grudge has everything to do with failure of 
> Occlumency lessons. And DD seems to recognize that, no? Old wounds, 
> etc. <snip>

Carol:
Possibly. But Harry didn't try to learn Occlumency because he hated
Snape and wanted to have those dreams. He was as happy to have the
lessons end as Snape was, and I don't think he would have sufficiently
mastered Occlumency to prevent Voldemort from implanting that vision
in his head. Nor could any words of Snape's have persuaded him that
the vision wasn't as true as the snake dream had been. If Hermione
couldn't persuade him, how could Snape have done so?

As for old wounds, we know that Dumbledore tells partial truths and
the "schoolboy grudge" may serve here as it does in PoA (IMO) to cover
other motives. It may be that both DD (to whom Snape must surely have
reported the fiasco or DD wouldn't know about it) and Snape felt that
the lessons were opening Harry's mind further to Voldemort, doing more
harm than good. Or DD may have realized that, given Harry's emotional
state, it was the wrong time to point out that it was he, Harry, who
had invaded Snape's memory. So, as usual, he took the blame onto himself.

Carol, who thinks that Harry's desire to find out what was behind the
door was the chief reason for the failure of the Occlumency lessons
and that Snape's methods would have worked wonders with an apt and
eager pupil like Draco