Nitwit? - Remus John Lupin

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 168103

> > Alla:
> >
> > Sorry, but Lupin betraying Dumbledore's trust in PoA, even if 
Lupin
> > says so, is an interpretation not a fact IMO.
> >
> > I mean, Lupin was putting school at risk ? How? Is there a canon 
that
> > had Dumbledore known that Sirius was an animagi, he would have 
been
> > caught that very moment? Is there a moment where anything 
hinders on
> > that piece of information?
> 
> Magpie:
> In this case I'm going to have to say I think it's as close as 
something can 
> be to canon, interpretation or not. If Sirius is thought to be 
attacking the 
> school the information Remus is concealing is very important--it's 
the 
> single most important piece of information we have. We can't know 
if 
> Dumbledore would have caught Sirius immediately, no, but it's no 
stretch to 
> say that things do hinge on those pieces of information. How could 
it not be 
> important that Sirius might sometimes be a big black dog instead 
of a man? 
> (Perhaps Harry might have wondered why Sirius didn't kill him that 
first 
> time they saw each other.)
> 
> In the end it was, of course, good that Remus didn't tell because 
Sirius 
> being a dog is what got him out of Azkaban and kept him hidden all 
that 
> time. But given the information he knew then, especially after 
Sirius snuck 
> into the dorm once, I don't see how it can be considered anything 
but 
> betraying Dumbledore's trust by claiming he wants Harry protected. 
All the 
> teachers are expected to be doing all they can to keep Sirius out 
of the 
> school and catch him, and Lupin is concealing Sirius' main weapon.


Alla:

Well, I was arguing and still am against the argument that since 
Remus already betrayed Dumbledore's trust once, he can do it again, 
and that is why the quotes that JKR likes him and wants him to teach 
his daughter make no sense as support for Lupin being, should I say 
DD!M? I guess it would be appropriate here.

So, yes, I am saying that Lupin concealing Sirius being an animagi 
does not equal betraying Dumbledore's trust as canonical fact. 
Interpretaion? Sure, I can see that. Fact? No, sorry, I do not see 
it.

I mean, twelve years passed and Remus believes Sirius the moment he 
saw Peter on the map. So, yes, I do think it was possible, totally 
that he believed deep inside in Sirius innocence. No convincing was 
needed from Sirius that he is innocent, at all, to me it means 
something.

So, if you are for example saying that Remus concealing Sirius being 
animagi led to Ron and Fat Lady being hurt, sure, I will grant you 
that. But I am not buying the generalisation of Remus not telling 
the secret equals willingly putting hundreds of lives at risk.

There is also IMO very important moment why I am not buying that 
Dumbledore's trust had been betrayed. It is because Dumbledore 
himself does not seem to think so ( I mean, if you think that Lupin 
is a liar, that is a different story, but I am proceeding that he is 
telling the truth here)

"Why?" said Harry. "The Ministry of Magic don't think you were 
helping Sirius, do they?"
Lupin crossed to the door and closed it behind Harry.
"No. Professor Dumbledore managed to convince Fudge that I was 
trying to save your lives." He signed" - PoA, p.309, paperback, 
british edition.

I don't know Dumbledore really does not sound to me like someone 
whose trust had been betrayed here. Of course it is quite possible 
that he gave Remus a mouthful in private, but since I did not read 
it, I will think that it did not happen for now.


And of course that famous quote.

"sirius told me all about how they became Animagi last night," said 
Dumbledore, smiling. "An extraordinary achievement - not least 
keeping that quiet from me" - p.312, PoA.

Dumbledore does not sound too upset to me here either after learning 
this information. If his trust had been betrayed, shouldn't he had 
been more upset?


Magpie:
> After all, wouldn't things have been different in PoA if everyone 
knew Peter 
> was the bad guy and was a rat? That's the form in which Sirius 
recognizes 
> him in the picture and it's how Peter is able to escape to begin 
with. Now 
> that we know what we know, we know Remus wasn't really putting 
anyone at 
> risk by not telling about Sirius being an Animagus, but based on 
what he 
> knew at the time, I think he considered himself absolutely putting 
them at 
> risk by not telling. <SNIP>


Alla:

Oh, I have no doubts that Remus was absolutely considering himself 
putting kids lifes at risk. It is just I am not buying that at least 
not completely.

Just as I have no doubts that Snape believes that Sirius Black tried 
to kill him. I more often than not believe in Snape sincerity here, 
I just do not buy that as fact.


Magpie:
Even if he hoped deep down Sirius was innocent, he'd 
> still be working against the efforts of Dumbledore by helping 
Sirius stay 
> free and get around the school. But of course he never claims to 
have 
> thought he was innocent. It seemed more like, just like in the 
Pensieve, he 
> hoped the right thing would happen without him having to stick his 
neck out 
> for it.


Alla:

See, we differ here. If Remus believed in Sirius innocence, which of 
course is not a fact, just I believe that there is a hint of support 
for it, I think he would have been doing a good deed. No, he never 
claims it of course, I believe he would rather take a blame than not.

 
> Alla:
> > So, no, I do not think that JKR already made Lupin betray 
Dumbledore's
> > trust in PoA, despite him saying so. I think Lupin gives himself 
here
> > way more credit than he should, IMO of course.
> >
> > That is why the fact that JKR likes him and wants him to teach 
her
> > daughter is a very strong point in favor of Lupin not being evil.
> 
> Magpie:
> She does say she'd want him to teach her daughter, but she also 
says his 
> flaw comes down to wanting to be liked, doesn't she? Seems to me 
she's 
> validated Lupin's own views about what he did in PoA. 
<SNIP>

Alla:

Sure she does.But how does wanting to be liked translates in Lupin 
being the killer, you know?

Because that is what I was ultimately arguing about and still find 
it rather mind boggling how from this quote it can be inferred that 
Lupin is Evil ( but that is of course in relation to Pippin's 
argument, not yours)


JMO,

Alla