Nitwit? - Remus John Lupin

[wynnleaf]

No: HPFGUIDX 168106


> Alla:
> 
> Sorry, but Lupin betraying Dumbledore's trust in PoA, even if Lupin 
> says so, is an interpretation not a fact IMO.

wynnleaf
It may be your opinion that it's not canon, but that does not mean
it's not.  It's canon.  Lupin did not know Sirius wasn't a crazed mass
murderer and death eater.  All the evidence pointed to that and Lupin
either believed it, or was a terrible "friend" in making zero attempt
to prove any differently.  Anyway, what in the world do you think
Lupin assumed Sirius was doing with that knife if he thought Sirius
was innocent?  Lupin didn't know Peter was alive, right?  

Now, given that Lupin thought a mass murderer was trying to get in the
school and *had* gotten into the school, brandishing a knife over a
student, or slashing up a portrait entrance, he was endangering the
school whenever he did not share important information for protecting
the school.

A lot has been said about Lupin not sharing about Sirius' animagi
status.  But that is by *no* means all.

Lupin also knew secret passages in and out of the castle which he knew
that Sirius was aware of.  Staff were obviously not aware of those
passages, as we see in POA when Snape isn't aware of the passage to
Honeydukes.  Lupin could have shared his knowledge that Sirius knew
secret passages unknown to Hogwarts staff.  He could have shared this
info without divulging anything about the Marauder's becoming animagi.
 But does he?  No.

So he leaves open secret passages into the castle, without bothering
to make sure they are guarded, even though he knows that a supposedly
crazed murderer is probably getting in by those passages.

If that's not risking the lives of the kids, I can't imagine what else
would be.  

Alla 
> I mean, Lupin was putting school at risk ? How? Is there a canon that 
> had Dumbledore known that Sirius was an animagi, he would have been 
> caught that very moment? Is there a moment where anything hinders on 
> that piece of information?

wynnleaf
Since we only follow Harry's viewpoint, we don't know.  But all those
times searching the castle and Lupin never told anyone "be on the
lookout for a dog, because Sirius can transform into one," he was
helping Sirius to escape.  Since Lupin didn't know Sirius wasn't a
crazed murderer, he was withholding vital information that would help
in protecting children.  

Alla
> And of course there is a fact that Lupin really was not putting anyone 
> at risk by not revealing that information about animagi. Maybe he was 
> really thinking deep down that Sirius was innocent, who knows.

wynnleaf
Even if he wondered if Sirius was innocent, he certainly didn't know
and could have had zero proof other than some possible gut feeling. 
And on that it's okay to risk kid's lives?

The fact that Sirius was not guilty has *nothing* to do with Lupin's
betrayal, since as far as Lupin actually knew, Sirius was trying to
murder people in the castle.  I could repeat, what *else* would Lupin
think Sirius was doing with the knife?

> > wynnleaf
> > First, we don't know that Lupin had "a great deal more than Snape" 
> > to overcome, because we really don't know enough about either.  
> <SNIP>
> 
> 
> Alla:
> 
> Well, we know that if Dumbledore did not become the headmaster for 
> example, Lupin would not be able to come to Hogwarts, no? I do not 
> think that we know that Snape faced a threat of not coming to Hogwarts 
> ever. 

wynnleaf,
You seem to equate "may not have been able to attend Hogwarts" as some
sort of major hardship which can shape one's life.  Well, to an
extent, but since Lupin *was* able to go, he didn't suffer that
hardship at all.

Similarly, we're told that werewolves are shunned.  Yes.  But while
Lupin was at Hogwarts, none of the kids except the Marauders knew he
was a werewolf, so Lupin didn't suffer *any* shunning at Hogwarts.  We
can be sure that muggle kids weren't shunning him for being a werewolf
prior to coming to Hogwarts, nor did wizarding kids know he was one,
so there was no pre-Hogwarts shunning by children of Lupin either. 
I'm sure being a werewolf very much affected the way his parents
raised him and his feelings about making and keeping friends, but
let's not imagine young Lupin being shunned by kids, because it almost
certainly didn't happen.

So the major active hardship that Lupin went through was the personal
hardship of his transformation.  I don't want to make light of that. 
It would be tough and especially to realize it would be chronic and
life-long.  But Lupin appears to have been loved by parents (who seem
to have done the best they could for him), and liked by his peers.  He
does well in school and is honored by his school as a prefect.  He had
a lot to go through, but let's not make it out to be even worse than
it actually was.  
> 
> Alla:
> 
> I am sorry when did Lupin **willingly** endangered the lives of 
> hundreds of children? When he forgot about the potion? 

wynnleaf
Of course not!  

Every time the staff was searching the castle and Lupin knew that a
big black dog might be out there which staff might run across, but he
never told them that such a dog would be Sirius the supposedly crazed
murderer.  Every time the staff worried over searching for how the
supposedly crazed murderer entered the castle and Lupin *didn't* say
"Sirius knows about a secret passage into Hogwarts.  Let me show you
were it is."  That's willing endangerment, because Lupin had a
conscious choice and chose to not tell his vital information.

Alla
There is also IMO very important moment why I am not buying that
Dumbledore's trust had been betrayed. It is because Dumbledore
himself does not seem to think so ( I mean, if you think that Lupin
is a liar, that is a different story, but I am proceeding that he is
telling the truth here)

"Why?" said Harry. "The Ministry of Magic don't think you were
helping Sirius, do they?"
Lupin crossed to the door and closed it behind Harry.
"No. Professor Dumbledore managed to convince Fudge that I was
trying to save your lives." He signed" - PoA, p.309, paperback,
british edition.

wynnleaf
It's perfectly easy for Dumbledore to believe that Lupin ran out to
the Shrieking Shack to save their lives, and yet still be quite aware
that Lupin broke trust with Dumbledore and the school during the
preceding nine months when he didn't give info that only he was privy to.


"sirius told me all about how they became Animagi last night," said
Dumbledore, smiling. "An extraordinary achievement - not least
keeping that quiet from me" - p.312, PoA.

Alla
Dumbledore does not sound too upset to me here either after learning
this information. If his trust had been betrayed, shouldn't he had
been more upset?

wynnleaf
Dumbledore wasn't upset at *Sirius* whose conversation he was
discussing.  If you'll note, Dumbledore didn't say a single thing
about Lupin during his talk with Harry, even though he was just
present when Lupin was saying sad farewells to Harry.  Dumbledore
offers no regrets that Lupin left.  No comment pro or con about Lupin.
 It's not Harry's business if Dumbledore had a problem with Lupin's
actions as an employee.  But Dumbledore makes *no* positive comment
about Lupin to Harry.  In fact, no comment.  And Dumbledore's demeanor
when saying goodbye to Lupin had only been described as "soberly,"
which is pretty ambiguous.  While Lupin was obviously tense around
Dumbledore and wanted to leave quickly as soon as Dumbledore came
through the door, even going so far as to ask Dumbledore not to
accompany him to his carriage.  I don't think Dumbledore and Lupin had
a pleasant meeting earlier that morning.

Alla:
If Remus believed in Sirius innocence, which of
course is not a fact, just I believe that there is a hint of support
for it, I think he would have been doing a good deed.

wynnleaf
No, it would *not* be doing a good deed to assume that whatever gut
instinct he may have had that Sirius was innocent was enough to
*assume* that Sirius was innocent and not offer vital information that
could still help protect the castle.  After all, offering up some of
that info -- such as the secret passages that Sirius knew of -- would
have cost Lupin nothing whatsoever.  

> > wynnleaf
> > I am very hopeful that JKR will ultimately show us that trying to 
> > judge someone's loyalties by how nice they are isn't always the best 
> > way.
> >
> 
> Alla:
> 
> And I think that this would be the cliche in its own right. The 
> backwards cliche so to speak. IMO of course.
> 
wynnleaf
Is there such a cliche?  "You *can* judge a book by it's cover." 
Something like that, eh?  Pleasant people can be counted on to be
good.  Unpleasant people can be counted on to be bad.  I don't think I
ever heard cliches like that.  Or a literary cliche like, the mean
nasty guy in the story always turns out to be the villian.  Like a
melodrama.  

wynnleaf (repeated)
<<I am very hopeful that JKR will ultimately show us that trying to
judge someone's loyalties by how nice they are isn't always the best
way.

Sherry:

I believe she will, through the story of Draco. I am not a fan of Draco,
have never liked him. He has never been a nice kid. In fact, he's been a
damn mean kid. But I expect, due to the moments on the tower in HBP, that
Draco will be the character who is redeemed, if there is one. I don't
think
he will turn into a nice guy. I think he will remain arrogant and snotty,
at least for the foreseeable future. But I believe his choices will
show he
is not going to follow Voldemort, and I believe he will change the path of
his life and will work for the good side to defeat Voldemort.

wynnleaf
I understand that there are those who believe that Harry's perceptions
are accurate and they are going to be validated, but so far each book
has had some of Harry's perceptions be accurate, but some very major
one's be very wide of the mark.  

I could see Draco turning toward working against Voldemort, and not
change his basic character.  And Harry would see that a person could
dislike him personally, but still turn against Voldemort.  But Harry
wouldn't really have his perceptions changed, because he'd still see
Draco mostly the same way, because you'd *expect* any rational person
to be opposed to someone who's threatening to kill their parents.
Therefore, I don't think Draco working against Voldemort is any big
eye-opener for Harry. 

What Harry has been wrong about repeatedly is in trusting people that
he shouldn't trust -- whether in a big way (Fake!Moody) or in small
ways (trusting Kreacher's info about Sirius).  I expect another
example of Harry trusting the wrong person in DH -- and Lupin makes
the best candidate for many plot and literary reasons.


wynnleaf