The Marauder's Forays / Snape v James

[Mike]

No: HPFGUIDX 168107

> In http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/168082
>
> Magpie:
> Maybe I'm not understanding, because it seems like you're wanting 
> it both ways. You're explaining their behavior through RW ideas 
> (they're a certain calibre of guy), but drawing the line at 
> assuming that the consequences of their behavior are the same as in 
> the RW. 

Mike:
Sorry to confuse y'all. ;) I'm not really *wanting* anything. I'm 
endeavoring to explain the *psyche* of these teenage wizards, and 
sorry, but I don't have anything other than the RW to base my 
interpretation upon. At the same time, their *actions* are so far 
removed from the RW that it is hard to draw a parallel to the RW and 
still keep them in context of the WW. Does that make sense?

> Magpie:
> But as far as I can see, werewolves are taken very seriously in 
> the RW [you mean WW here, right?]. They may be removed from the RW, 
> but not from the deadly seriousness of the situation. One bite 
> ruins your life or kills you. Everyone takes werewolves very 
> seriously, and they've only gotten more serious as the books  
> progress.  <snip>

Mike:
Yes, but at the same time the WW has obviously come up with a way to 
deal with the werewolves or they would all be werewolves themselves 
by now, wouldn't they? Werewolves may be terrifying to the Muggles, 
but in the WW Dumbledore has invited one to attend his school. Then 
for good measure, he invited one back to teach. 

All I'm suggesting is that werewolves are not as terrifying as a 
group to wizards as people in the RW would naturally assume them to 
be. Sure, we have a few rogue werewolves like Greyback. But I 
speculate that Death Eaters scare your average wizard more than 
werewolves do.


> Magpie:
> But I believe Remus when he says that he understood the danger, 
> since he's lived with the consequences of being a werewolf most of 
> his life. I think MWPP's behavior is perfectly understandable given 
> who they are, but that in this case it's reflecting things that are 
> genuinely bad about them. In this regard, unexceptional Neville 
> easily outstrips them and they kind of suck.:-) Because their 
> actions *are* deadly in their world.

Mike:
Let me quote some of Remus from PoA:

"Before the Wolfsbane Potion was invented, however, I became a fully 
fledged monster once a month."   (p.353)

"My transformation in those days were - were terrible. It is very 
painful to turn into a werewolf. I was seperated from humans to bite, 
so I bit and scratched myself instead. The villagers heard the noise 
and the screaming..."     (p.353)

Can you imagine Remus having to go through that month after month for 
five years (not counting the time before Hogwarts), before his 
friends became Animagi and changed his life? 

"Under their [Marauders] influence, I became less dangerous. My body 
was still wolfish, but my mind seemed to become less so while was 
with them."   (p.355)

Glorious reprieve! He doesn't have to scratch and bite himself to the 
point of screaming out in so much pain that the villagers think there 
are particularly nasty spirits in the Shack. Is it any wonder that he 
chose this life, including the marauding, over the previous? It kind 
of makes calling their marauding "bad" a little more subjective, 
doesn't it?

And I would like to add one more quote that we seem to forget:

"Sirius and James transformed into such large animals, they were able 
to keep a werewolf in check."    (p. 355)

And it did work, didn't it? Sirius alone, in a weakened condition 
after 12 years of Azkaban, stopped and drove off the Werewolf!Lupin, 
didn't he? In hindsight, even Lupin admits their actions were foolish 
and dangerous, but as teenagers they still had some contingencies in 
place. They weren't *completely* reckless.

Lastly, Neville standing up to the trio does not prove that the 
Marauders "suck", imo. ;)

I've snipped out the rest to add that I agree, Lupin has shown a 
distinct lack of courage to stand up and be counted. Never my 
intention to deny this point.

*********************************************
In http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/168084

Carol responds:
Oh, boy. I'm going to regret getting caught in this thread.

Mike:
No, come on in Carol, the waters just fine. ;D

Carol:
Now Remus may think that his friends became Animagi to keep him
company and to lessen his pain, but it seems to me more likely that
they did it to show off their talents and because it would be "cool"
to run with a werewolf... but he also no doubt feels that if they 
didn't have the midnight run with him once a month, they might treat 
him as they do Wormtail (note Sirius's contemptuous remark about 
Wormtail wetting himself). 

Mike:
Even if that was James and Sirius' motivation, look what it did for 
Remus' life, as noted above. I think it's being too negative to only 
ascribe personal and otherwise derogatory motivations to James and 
Sirius. They were friends first, Marauders only when they reached 
their 5th year. 

I have serious "doubt" that Remus thinks his friends are in it only 
for the "midnight runs". He is grateful, yes, for their companionship 
once a month, who wouldn't be in his position? But I don't see how 
one can extrapolate so far as to believe that James and Sirius are 
such callous people. Based on what, their treatment of Snape, they 
are suppose to be heartless towards their friends? I think people 
read waaaay to much into SWM, and thereby extrapolate way too much.

Carol:
I'm talking about the teenagers we see in "Snape's Worst Memory," who 
are anything but "cool" in my opinion, nor do I think JKR wishes us 
to see them as being so.

Mike:
Too bad, I still think they are *cool* ;)) OK, maybe "cool" is the 
wrong word here. How about unique? Extrordinary? Talanted? Whatever 
you want to call them, I don't think JKR spent 5 years having all 
these people tell Harry how wonderful his parents were, to have the 
entire good side of James' ledger cut and pasted onto the bad side of 
the ledger. One nasty treatment of Snape, while showing off for his 
erstwhile girlfriend is not the sum total of their existance. 

And Snape shoving a box of Harry's dad's and Sirius' detentions under 
his nose is so far out of context that I don't think it's worth 
responding to. Sirius admits they were berks some times, admits they 
spent a lot of time in detention. Were they the only ones? Was Snape 
as pure as the driven snow and not have any detentions himself? Oh, 
and did Snape only invent "Levicorpus" but never use it himself? Not 
sure how it became so popular, but there you are.

Carol:
Anyway, far from obviating normal concerns, greater power should bring
with it greater responsibility.... but talent does not excuse the
reckless endangerment of fellow wizards any more than it would excuse
the reckless endangerment of Muggles.

Mike:
First off - thank you Uncle Ben (Spiderman)LOL.

I stated my views on the degree of recklessness that applies to the 
Marauder's escapades above. Won't repeat em. My comment on "normal 
concerns" was my way of saying these aren't *normal* conditions. 
Trying to draw parallels between their escapades and the RW fall 
flat, imo. 

*****************************************
In http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/168086

wynnleaf:
What we *know* is that he was bullied for years by a group of four 
students who tended to work together and had a convenient map so that 
they could easily target him (or anyone else) unsuspectingly.

Mike:
Do we *know* this? Based on one Pensieve scene, that admittedly (or 
supposedly) Snape's **Worst** Memory? We know that Snape had older 
Slytherins that took an interest in him. One of them, Lucius Malfoy, 
continued to take an interest in him well after school. Do we *know* 
that MWPP weren't on the losing end of many skirmishes in their first 
few years of school, when Snape still had those older Slytherins 
around?

The Marauder's Map didn't come about until after they had figured out 
how to become Animagi in their 5th year and after they had time to do 
a great deal of exploring. And if one believes, as I do, that their 
marauding ended after the Prank, and that the Prank happened at the 
end of their 5th year, there doesn't seem to be a lot of time for the 
map to come into play vis-a-vis Snape.

Sorry, but I don't get the feeling that Snape spent 7 years getting 
bullied. Even while admitting to Harry that James didn't stop with 
Snape, Sirius told us that Snape didn't miss his chances to hex James 
either. I seriously doubt that one Pensieve scene defined the entire 
7 years of school.

wynnleaf:
....we have no evidence that Snape was out trying to attack them 
other than the "gave as good as he got" (2, 3, or 4 against 1?) 
excuse that Sirius and Lupin attempt.

Mike:
Conversely, we have no evidence of the 4 to 1 other than Snape's 
claim on the lawn in HBP. All we have is one scene, one that is 
supposed to be Snape's worst. And that scene was mostly one on one, 
James vs. Severus, until Lily joined in and James got distracted. 
Which is when Sirius actually did something (casting one Petrificus 
Totalus) other than jeer. So if that was Snape's Worst, what do you 
think would comprise Snape's best?

I'm having a hard time seeing Snape as being only put upon and not 
doing some of the putting upon himself. Especially after experiencing 
him as an adult.

Dana:
> when the kid loses the one person he was more closely connected
> with then anybody else in his short life, he rubs it in by
> having the kid re-write their detention cards

wynnleaf
This is pure speculation on your part. It could be that Snape
having Harry do the Marauder's era of detention files was in part to
point out to Harry the mistake of following down that path -- the
indescriminant hexing in the halls stuff, which Harry was beginning
to do in HBP.

Mike:
How is that speculation on Dana's part? You would seriously have us 
believe that Snape picked those files for Harry's own good? Snape is 
described as having "a malicious smile on his lips". His reading of 
one of the cards is described as "sneered". His last comment was,"It 
must be such a comfort to think that, though they are gone, a record 
of their great achievements remains." (HBP, p.532)

Oh yeah, Snape is just trying to steer Harry in the right direction.  
That would be ascribing to Snape a quality he has heretofore not 
shown, especially with regards to Harry.

And I doubt that Harry, or for that matter James and Sirius in their 
time, were the only ones doing a little hexing in the halls. I seem 
to recall a fair few folks going to Madam Pomfrey throughout the 
books after getting hexed in the halls. So I don't buy that as a 
legitimate attempt to correct of Snape's.

****************************************

It is quite hard for James and Sirius to defend themselves when 
they're dead. And we have been fed a 6 year diet of Snape's position 
on their relationship without much counterpunching from the likes of 
Lupin. The few times that Sirius had with Harry were mostly spent on 
more important concerns, not Snape. Or they included Sirius trying to 
explain himself and James after a particularly egregious event from 
their school days. I hope that JKR restores some of the lustre on 
James armor in DH. Or I'll be feeling like Sherry, that JKR has 
pulled the rug out from under Harry and killed his father all over 
again.

Mike