The Marauder's Forays / Snape v James

[Zara]

No: HPFGUIDX 168110


> Mike:
> Glorious reprieve! He doesn't have to scratch and bite himself to 
the 
> point of screaming out in so much pain that the villagers think 
there 
> are particularly nasty spirits in the Shack. Is it any wonder that 
he 
> chose this life, including the marauding, over the previous? It 
kind 
> of makes calling their marauding "bad" a little more subjective, 
> doesn't it?

zgirnius:
It is not clear to me that the beneficial effect was from being 
outside. The text suggests the beneficial effect was having their 
company, which could be achieved without venturing to locations 
where 'near misses' occured.

> Mike:
> Too bad, I still think they are *cool* ;)) OK, maybe "cool" is the 
> wrong word here. How about unique? Extrordinary? Talanted? 

zgirnius:
They are all those things, but none of them are particualrly in 
evidence in that scene, that I could see. So for that matter, is 
Snape, and ditto (except that we now know he invented one or two of 
the spells in use).


> Mike:
> One nasty treatment of Snape, while showing off for his 
> erstwhile girlfriend is not the sum total of their existance. 

zgirnius:
It seems, however, to be the consensus that it is a reasonable 
summation of James throughout much of his school days. Until his head 
deflated, and he started dating Lily in his seventh year.

Aside from his school friends, his other admirers may well be 
remembering a courageous and active Order member who died trying to 
protect his wife and son. Something else he did/was after he grew up.

> wynnleaf:
> What we *know* is that he was bullied for years by a group of four 
> students who tended to work together and had a convenient map so 
that 
> they could easily target him (or anyone else) unsuspectingly.
> 
> Mike:
> Do we *know* this? Based on one Pensieve scene, that admittedly (or 
> supposedly) Snape's **Worst** Memory? We know that Snape had older 
> Slytherins that took an interest in him. One of them, Lucius 
Malfoy, 
> continued to take an interest in him well after school. Do we 
*know* 
> that MWPP weren't on the losing end of many skirmishes in their 
first 
> few years of school, when Snape still had those older Slytherins 
> around?

zgirnius:
We don't know it. But the ongoing nature of the problem is suggested 
by a couple of different points within the memory, and additional 
evidence from elsewhere.

>From within the memory - Snape's twitchiness and quick reaction to 
being accosted verbally suggest he knew what might be coming. (Sorry, 
I don't buy that he tried to attack James and Sirius by himself. Our 
boy Sev may be brave, but he's not stupid.)

And secondly, Lily's comment. James makes her sick, she claims, and 
she explains why. She does not limit herself to his actions against 
Snape within the memory itself, she is discussing things she has 
observed over the course of time. It could be that Snape was only 
ever a target twice, but given the levels of animosity on both sides, 
that seems unlikely.

Outside the memory, we know of another incident of great seriousness 
involving Snape and the Marauders. Everyone seems to have agreed that 
in the course of that incident, James saved Snape's life. It follows, 
that someone endangered it. Unless a member of the staff told Snape 
how to get in, the source of the information that Snape should never 
have gotten was a Marauder.

Also outside the memory, we have conversations about Snape and why he 
was disliked/deserving of bad treatment on occasions in PoA, GoF, and 
OotP. That he employed his precocious knowledge of the Dark Arts, or 
his older Slyth pals picked un Gryff underclassmen at his behest, is 
never metioned. If that were the history, I would expect to have 
heard about it.

> Mike:
> And if one believes, as I do, that their 
> marauding ended after the Prank, and that the Prank happened at the 
> end of their 5th year, there doesn't seem to be a lot of time for 
the 
> map to come into play vis-a-vis Snape.

zgirnius:
Sorry - do you believe the Prank was before or after the Worst Memory?
And by 'Marauding' do you mean picking on Snape?

> Mike:
> It is quite hard for James and Sirius to defend themselves when 
> they're dead. And we have been fed a 6 year diet of Snape's 
position 
> on their relationship without much counterpunching from the likes 
of 
> Lupin. 

zgirnius:
You are exaggerating a bit. Snape does not say a thing about a 
Marauder to Harry until PoA. We learn that Snape and James were 
anything but pals from Dumbledore, who does not present Snape's side 
of the story. If anything, it is closer to James's, since Snape seems 
to believe James got cold feet after being involved in the planning 
of the Prank, and Dumbledore suggests nothing of the kind. (To be 
clear, I believe James was not involved. I make the point only to 
show that in PS/SS we were decidedly not fed Snape's position.)

In PoA Snape for the first time presents his view of James, and 
unless I am atypical of readers of that book, he gets disregarded in 
favor of the more reasonable-sounding Lupin, especially since we have 
already heard so much about James's fine qualities from Hagrid, 
Dumbledore, and probably other sources that escape me at present.

In GoF Snape never once mentions the Marauders, again. Sirius 
mentions him - we learn about his Slytherin gang and supposed 
fascination with the Dark Arts.

In OotP Snape does, finally, get his day. We see his memory of a 
schoolday incident and we realize there was a little something noone 
told us about the Marauders. Well, Snape did.

In HBP, Snape again presents his side, through the detentions and the 
comments he makes to Harry in "The Flight of the Prince".

I would not call mentions in three books being "fed a 6 year diet of 
Snape's position on their relationship".

Mike:
> I hope that JKR restores some of the lustre on
James armor in DH. Or I'll be feeling like Sherry, that JKR has
pulled the rug out from under Harry and killed his father all over
again.

zgirnius:
I am afraid I do not understand your position. Is it not that James 
was a fine human being? And if it is, why does his armor need 
polishing?