Nitwit? - Remus John Lupin

[justcarol67]

No: HPFGUIDX 168131

Dana wrote:
<snip> 
> 
> By the way I have seen people excuse him being a former DE because
he had such a bad childhood, that is giving the man excuses for his
own choices too.  <snip>
> 
Carol responds:
You may have seen people excusing Snape's choice to become a DE, but
no one here is doing that, to my knowledge. It was a wrong choice,
period. Some of us are, nevertheless, interested in exploring possible
reasons why he made that wrong choice, not to excuse it but to
understand it and him. It is possible, for example, that the
Marauders' treatment of him played some role in pushing him toward the
Dark side--an unintended consequence, naturally.

Dana wrote:
<snip>
> He endangered the lives of the students in HBP by not actively 
preventing Draco working out his task. 

Carol responds:
We don't know enough about Snape's motives in HBP or the argument in
the forest to support an assertion of this sort. Snape may have been
arguing against DD's decision not to thwart Draco ("You take too much
for granted!") He put Draco's friends in detention (and probably used
Legilimency on them). He forced Draco to talk to him in his office and
he found out as much as he could (probably more than we think but not
about the Vanishing Cabinet itself because of Draco's Occlumency). He
apparently reported the whole conversation to DD, who implies to Harry
that he knows more than Harry does about it. Beyond that, we don't know.

Dana:
He might have helped Kathy 

Carol:
"Might have helped"? He *saved Katie Bell's life* (and presumably
removed the curse from the necklace as well). You know, an honest
concession once in awhile would show that you're looking at both sides
of the argument, not just seeing what you want to see.

Dana:
but he actually did nothing that we see on page to prevent Draco from
trying and kill DD and yes, we know why because he can't because he 
will die himself. 

Carol:
On page? Of course not (except for the points I've listed). We don't
know what Snape and DD did or suspected (aside from connecting Draco
to the cursed necklace and discouraging him from similar tactics in
future) because we're seeing from Harry's pov and JKR is keeping Snape
mysterious. We don't know exactly how the vow would be triggered or
how much Snape could do to thwart Draco without triggering it (and
certainly, if he dies, he won't be any further use to either DD or
Draco). Snape can't put Draco in detention without arousing Draco's
suspicions about his loyalties, and he certainly doesn't want Draco
face to face with Dumbledore. However, it was lucky for both Draco and
Harry that Snape was following Draco. No one else is likely to know
the countercurse to the spell that he invented. And Snape, as HoH and
Draco's teacher, would have saved Draco even if the UV had never been
spoken, just as he saved Harry on more than one occasion and just as
he saved Katie. He certainly didn't need to save Katie to save his own
life. Her death would not have triggered the Unbreakable Vow, nor
would claiming not to know how to save her have lost him his job. (On
a side note, we see Snape's Healing skills, unsuspected until now,
over and over again in HBP, starting with the ring Horcrux. I will be
very surprised if they don't play a crucial role in DH. Otherwise, why
introduce them in HBP?)

Dana:
And many wishful thinkers might actually believe all his actions were
out of the goodness of his heart and that he tried to get the DEs out
as fast as he could, he did nothing to prevent them to enter the
castle in the first place. 

Carol:
We're all wishful thinkers one way or the other when it comes to
Snape. :-) You wish to think the worst of him. I see too much evidence
to the contrary to share your view. No one, however, is talking about
"the goodness of his heart." (You might try refraining from sarcasm
since you're attacking the master of that art. :-) ) We're talking
about loyalty to Dumbledore and opposition to Voldemort, not sweet,
kindly, misunderstood Snape. No one is denying that Snape is sarcastic
and bitter and intensely dislikes Harry. That does not prevent him
from repeatedly risking his life, canonically, to spy on Voldemort or
save Harry and friends.

"Did nothing to prevent them from entering the castle"? What could he
have done other than reporting what he knew to DD? He didn't know
about the Vanishing Cabinet (Draco used Occlumency to block him when
he tried to find out). DD had taken every conceivable precaution, from
locked gates that only a teacher (or Order member?) could open to
watching all the secret passages to searching students and packages
entering and leaving the castle to instituting anti-broom protection
in addition to the old anti-apparition spells and having Order members
stand guard when he left. How were DEs supposed to get in?

And if Snape wasn't trying to get the DEs out of the castle and
grounds after he killed DD, why did he keep yelling, "It's over! Let's
go!"? If all he cared about was his own life, he could have just
grabbed Draco and left the DEs to their own devices. Instead, he
stopped them from Crucioing Harry and made sure that they left.

Dana:
He could have put the kid into detention the rest of the year; he was
his head of house.

Carol:
No, he could not. He had to pretend to Draco, as to Narcissa and
Bella, that he was a loyal DE. Draco has to think that Snape is a
double agent loyal to Voldemort--at least until Draco's plan is
revealed and Dumbledore tries to stop him. Even now it may not be safe
for DDM!Snape to reveal to Draco where his loyalties truly lie.

Dana:
 Oh yes I forgot it was all planned of course to serve the greater good. 

Carol:
You know, your sarcasm isn't helping your argument. Needling the
opposition is unlikely to persuade us to share your view. Not all
DDM!Snapers believe that Dumbledore planned for Snape to kill him,
though it may have been a contingency plan. Certainly, neither snape
nor DD *planned* for DD to drink that terrible potion and be weakened
and wandless when and if the DEs arrived. And, IMO, they really
thought that they had taken every precaution. (I don't know what they
thought Draco was up to in the RoR, though DD, at least, knew he was
going there, but DEs entering through the RoR? How were they supposed
to anticipate *that*?)
> 
Dana:
> So I'm sorry but Snape actually did put the students at risk by 
taking a vow that prevented him from actively acting out against
Draco. And this action actually made it possible for a werewolf that
feeds on children to roam free within the castle walls.

Carol:
*I'm* sorry, but the vow put no one at risk except Snape himself and
Dumbledore. (I'm not going into his reasons for taking it here, which
aren't wholly clear, except that the main point seems to have been to
protect Draco.) Draco was avoiding Snape, who finally caught up with
him and let him know that he was suspected of being involved with the
cursed necklace and that such tactics were amateurish and dangerous.
(*Of course* he had to use a DE-style argument that Draco would listen
to here; he couldn't argue as Dumbledore's man that Draco was
endangering the school.) Neither Snape nor DD could have anticipated
the necklace incident It was too late to stop the poisoned mead, which
Slughorn had already purchased (and which neither DD nor Snape could
have anticipated), but Snape's point gets through and Draco stops
resorting to desperation measures that endanger his schoolmates.

You can't blame Snape for allowing a werewolf behind Hogwarts walls.
It's Draco who let him in and Voldemort, presumably, who sent him.
Snape had nothing to do with it.

The UV does not make Draco's actions possible. They would have
happened with or without it. And make no mistake; if Snape had not
arrived, Dumbledore would have died anyway. The DEs would have tried
to force Draco to do it and failing that would have killed him
themselves. The only difference Snape's arrival makes is that he is
forced to do the killing (a nice plot complication) and he sends DD's
body off the tower as no DD would do, preventing Greyback from having
DD for "afters" and allowing enough time for Snape to clear the tower
so that Harry doesn't come rushing out. Imagine the scene without
Snape. Would Draco and Harry have lived? Would anyone have restrained
the DEs from burning and Crucioing at will? We saw a taste of what
they would have done if Snape hadn't gotten them off the grounds. 
> 
Dana:
> I even am of the opinion he risked the lives of 6 students in OotP
to remain his cover and to not take the situation that presented
itself more seriously. 

Carol:
Your being "of the opinion" means nothing except that that's your
opinion. Others have argued persuasively that not only Harry but all
six kids would be dead if it weren't for Snape. He sent the Order.
They would not have shown up otherwise. (And, BTW, Ron would be dead
if it weren't for Snape's first lesson on Bezoars, which HBP!Snape
brings to Harry's mind.)

Dana:
> He risked the lives of students throughout the books come to think
of it, when he did not inform DD about Quirrell in book one, 

Carol:

We don't know what he told DD about Quirrell or what suspicions DD had
on his own. However, Snape tried to keep the kids away from that
corridor, and it was only their false suspicion of him that led them
there. The children in the school were in no danger as long as they
didn't go near the corridor, and Quirrell!mort would have been
thwarted by the Mirror of Erised in any case. Harry didn't have to be
there. And, of course, Snape saved Harry from Quirrell's broom jinx,
which even *Harry* acknowledges as Snape's saving his life.

Dana:
he risks the lives of the students by allowing Lockhart to take the
lead in CoS and not debating this decision, 

Carol:
I don't have a clue what you're talking about here. First, Snape did a
beautiful job of controlling the chaos of the Duelling Club and
teaching the kids Expelliarmus. Then he exposed Lockhart's
incompetence, essentially telling him that he now had the chance to do
his job and find the Chamber of Secrets. Had it not been for those
words, overheard by Ron and Harry, they would not have entered the
Chamber of Secrets. Ginny would have been left there to die and
Diary!Tom would have joined Vapormort, somehow becoming stronger than
ever (per a JKR interview). Lucky thing Snape said those words even
though he didn't anticipate any larger consequence than getting a
fraudulent DADA teacher out of the school.

Dana:
he risked the lives of the students by not bringing Lupin's potion to
the shack and then wanting to drag the werewolf up to the castle while
mocking Lupin about forgetting to take it.

Carol:
Perhaps you should reread the chapter. Unlike Lupin, Snape didn't know
that any students were out there. The only name he saw on the map was
Lupin's. So rather than running outside with a cup full of steaming
potion, which was likely to slop all over him and the ground and be
empty before he got there, he rushed out to capture the (perceived)
murderer and his werewolf accomplice. It was Lupin, rushing out
without his potion, *knowing* that Ron, at least, was out there, who
risked students' lives.

Dana:
 He risked the lives of the students by not going to DD instead of
running after Lupin himself. 

Carol:
Now why would he do that? It would take more time, and he was
perfectly capable of taking care of both the werewolf and the murderer
on his own--if it weren't for those pesky kids who wanted to hear the
rest of the murderer's story. :-) 

Dana:
He risked the lives of the students in GoF by not telling DD that
polyjuice potion herbs went missing from his office while this might
have been critical information that could have exposed Barty Crouch Jr
earlier on. 

Carol:
First, Polyjuice potion isn't made with herbs. More important, we
don't know that he didn't tell Dumbledore. Probably he did and that
was one of the crucial bits of information that helped Dumbledore
figure out the puzzle. Too bad Snape didn't get to keep the Marauder's
Map. If he had seen the name Bartemius Crouch on that map, the mystery
would have been solved much earlier. (And even if he didn't mention
the missing potion ingredients, which he didn't know were a clue to
Fake!Moody's identity, that pales in comparision with knowingly
concealing that a supposed murderer is an Animagus who knows secret
passageways into the school. The fact that Black's intended victim was
Pettigrew, not Harry, doesn't change his intent to commit murder or
Lupin's responsibility to tell DD all he knew about it.)
> 
Dana:
> So sorry I do see Snape's actions put many people at risk and he
even claims to be responsible for the death of two and we also see
that his previous actions of wanting to serve his master have put the
lives of many more in danger. <snip>

Carol:
May I suggest that instead of listing unsupported assertions you try
developing and supporting one or two assertions? Your seeing something
is just your opinion. If you want others to share that opinion, you
need to support it, preferably with canon.

Snape does not claim to be "responsible" for any deaths. He claims to
have provided information that led to certain deaths. We can show
persuasively that most of the information relating to Sirius Black
(whose death was not part of the Prophecy plot but an unintended
consequence of his choosing to go with the rest of the Order to save
Harry) was provided by either Wormtail or Kreacher. Nothing Snape
could have said would endanger Black as long as Black remained at 12
GP as ordered. Probably something similar is true for Emmeline Vance.
Snape is claiming to have provided information on her, but Bellatrix
has no way to prove or disprove that claim. For all we know, Snape may
have faked Emmeline's death. And no one, including Snape himself, is
disputing that reporting the Prophecy to Voldemort put the Potters in
danger. That's what Snape's remorse, and the whole Snape plot, is about.

Dana:
> Maybe he [Sirius Black] was right maybe Snape did deserve it because
we actually do not know what Snape contribution was in it. <snip>

Carol:
A sixteen-year-old boy deserved to be bitten by a werewolf? No matter
what his "contribution," he didn't deserve that.

Carol, snipping the rest of the post because her response is already
too long