Excusing Snape of any responsibility ( was Re: Nitwit? - Remus John Lupin)

[Dana]

No: HPFGUIDX 168144

Carol responds:
> It is possible, for example, that the
> Marauders' treatment of him played some role in pushing him toward 
> the Dark side--an unintended consequence, naturally.
<snip>

Dana:
And his fascination for the Dark Arts had nothing to do with it? I 
rest my case Carol, and it is making excuses for someone's personal 
choices by trying to reason that he might have made these choices 
because he was pushed towards it due someone treating him unfairly 
when he was young. Now we only have to wait for Neville or Harry to 
put on a mask because Snape treated them unfairly too. 

Carol responds:
> We don't know enough about Snape's motives in HBP or the argument in
> the forest to support an assertion of this sort. Snape may have been
> arguing against DD's decision not to thwart Draco ("You take too 
> much for granted!") He put Draco's friends in detention (and 
> probably used Legilimency on them). He forced Draco to talk to him 
> in his office and he found out as much as he could (probably more 
> than we think but not about the Vanishing Cabinet itself because of 
> Draco's Occlumency). He apparently reported the whole conversation 
> to DD, who implies to Harry that he knows more than Harry does 
> about it. Beyond that, we don't know.
<snip>

Dana:
It doesn't matter what his motives where, he couldn't do anything to 
actively prevent Draco trying to kill DD, because the moment he would 
do that the vow would kick in because Draco would fail his task. That 
is what canon tells us and because Snape could not control Draco 
because of the vow, his action put the entire school at risk if Draco 
somehow succeeded to bring in the DEs. And as canon stands now Snape 
omitted telling DD about the vow because DD is still telling Draco 
that he doesn't believe Snape actually took one but just would tell 
Draco this to win his trust. So DD was counting on Snape to deal with 
the situation while Snape actually couldn't do anything.

Carol:
> "Might have helped"? He *saved Katie Bell's life* (and presumably
> removed the curse from the necklace as well). You know, an honest
> concession once in awhile would show that you're looking at both 
> sides of the argument, not just seeing what you want to see.
<snip>

Dana: 
I couldn't be more honest about my concessions if I wanted to because 
you know, I looked at it both ways and came to the conclusion the man 
should have been on top of things from the beginning of the school 
year so incidents like these would not have happened but he can't do 
anything because he made a vow not to interfere. He was just lucky it 
wasn't too late for Kathy and he had no choice but to help Kathy 
because if she had died then Draco was guilty of murder and he was 
just cleaning up his mess, just as much as it was his duty to help, 
it is not some admirable choice he made to help Kathy, he couldn't 
just stand around and let the girl die. 

He knew about Draco's task before the school year began so he knew 
that Draco would be going to try to murder someone and because he 
doesn't know how Draco is going to attempt it, this would increase 
the risk of an innocent person inadvertently coming in harms way. And 
unless DH proofs Snape was lying that he knew the task Draco was 
asked to do, there is no reason to assume he did not, because canon 
says he did know. And as we see him appear within seconds of Harry's 
attack on Draco, there is also nothing to support Snape wasn't 
actually aware of Draco's activities and to me it suggest he was 
willingly risking the lives of many people because he could not do 
anything because of the vow. His intentions of taking the vow do 
absolutely not matter because it does not make it okay to risk the 
lives of many to safe just one (either his own or Draco)  

 Carol:
> On page? Of course not (except for the points I've listed). We don't
> know what Snape and DD did or suspected (aside from connecting Draco
> to the cursed necklace and discouraging him from similar tactics in
> future) because we're seeing from Harry's pov and JKR is keeping 
> Snape mysterious. 
<snip>

Dana:
Yes, there we have it the Harry filter excuse to explain the man's 
actions. We do not see Spinner's End through the Harry Filter now do 
we? No, we actually see him mock DD and his stupid trust, claim to be 
responsible for two Order Member's death and claiming to know all 
about Draco's task. You might not want to believe it and assume he 
was lying but canon never came up with proof that he was actually 
lying. On the contrary, him AKing DD of the astronomy tower pretty 
much supports his claim about DD being an old fool for trusting him. 
You can bend it anyway you like by questioning everything the book 
actually says but for now that is canon and unless JKR turns it 
around in DH, this is what we have.  

Carol:
> would claiming not to know how to save her have lost him his job. 
> (On a side note, we see Snape's Healing skills, unsuspected until 
> now,over and over again in HBP, starting with the ring Horcrux. I 
> will be very surprised if they don't play a crucial role in DH 
> Otherwise, why introduce them in HBP?)
<snip>

Dana:
We do not see Snape's healing skills we see him use his skills of the 
Dark Arts and his knowledge of Dark Curses. You might think it is an 
admirable trait but I think it proves Snape DID have a fascination 
for the Dark Arts as has been suggested. (And in my opinion why it 
was added not because he will put on a white coat and play doctor in 
DH) 
So it is actually your opinion that Snape has potential as a healer 
but there is no proof in canon that he can mend bones or heal the 
sick. He just can neutralize Dark Curses, one by his own invention I 
might add. 

Carol:
> That does not prevent him
> from repeatedly risking his life, canonically, to spy on Voldemort 
> or save Harry and friends.
<snip>

Dana: 
As I said in previous posts we do not see Snape repeatedly risking 
his live because he never puts his cover at risk and even a fellow DE 
accuses him of this. Him going to LV in GoF was not putting himself 
in more risk then not going and he actually had more chances facing 
LV then by defying him. Otherwise we do not have any canon support 
that any of his actions put himself at risk. Yes, he took the vow but 
we see him running as fast as he can to not drop dead. Canon does not 
support any alternative reading it is merely opinion to not want to 
take canon at face value and as you said opinion means nothing if you 
can't support it by canon ;)

 
Carol: 
> And if Snape wasn't trying to get the DEs out of the castle and
> grounds after he killed DD, why did he keep yelling, "It's over! 
> Let's go!"? If all he cared about was his own life, he could have 
> just grabbed Draco and left the DEs to their own devices. Instead, 
> he stopped them from Crucioing Harry and made sure that they left.
<snip>

Dana:
It is your opinion that he said it to get the DEs out of the castle 
as fast as he could, it could very well be for their own protection 
because like he says later we have to hurry before the MoM shows up. 
Him taking control could also have just made him feel more important; 
make him feel like a leader with no hidden motif of shaving Harry. 
Snape gives an explanation himself on why he is not harming Harry or 
let him be harmed, "have you forgotten the Dark Lords orders, Potter 
belongs to the Dark Lord."  

I am not going into this discussion again as we have been through 
this multiple times there is no canon to support your claim that 
Snape did it because he wanted to keep everyone including Harry safe 
and therefore it falls in the category of opinion and wishful 
thinking that canon might be disputed in the next book but for now 
canon is not very supportive of a DDM!Snape, Harry filter or not. 

Carol:
> You know, your sarcasm isn't helping your argument. Needling the
> opposition is unlikely to persuade us to share your view. 
<snip>

Dana:
No, it might not but it is actually fun to write and I am not trying 
to persuade anyone because my opinion can be given regardless if 
someone agrees with it, because I can interpret canon any way I like 
just like you. Everyone is entitled to skip my posts if they don't 
like the sarcasm. 


Carol:
> How were they supposed to anticipate *that*?
<snip>

Dana:
Because it would be Snape's task to be on top of things, if Harry can 
find out Draco is up to something in the RoR then so could Snape. He 
knew Draco's task and Snape implies he knows the DEs orders too with 
reminding the DEs of it. How can he tell the DEs, it is over, if he 
doesn't know the Orders they have, maybe the Dark Lord ordered them 
to kill as many students and teachers as they could but we actually 
see the DEs reacting to Snape and not dispute his claims. 

So at this moment it is suggested that Snape knew it was Draco's task 
to bring DEs in to the castle, Snape just did not know how he would 
manage it. He immediately knows without being told the action can be 
found on the tower, how does he know that? No Order Member knew DD 
and Harry were up there, yet Snape knows exactly where to find them. 
And still we have to believe he was taken totally by surprise and was 
not able to find out what Draco was up to while again as stated above 
he is there within a second after Harry attacks Draco. 


Carol:
> *I'm* sorry, but the vow put no one at risk except Snape himself and
> Dumbledore.
<snip>

Dana:
We don't see Snape risking his life because of the vow because he 
finishes the task to prevent himself from dying and again canon does 
not support the claim he killed DD for any other reason. 
What we do see is Snape not doing anything to prevent Draco from 
performing his task and we see that Draco's attempts has already put 
two students at risk. The moment Snape took the vow he made himself 
incapable of keeping anyone safe besides Draco and himself. That is 
willingly putting other students at risk by making yourself incapable 
to act. 

You might want to believe that saving Draco is worth more then the 
lives of other people (including DD) but I do not and him taking the 
vow does precisely that. 

Carol: 
> You can't blame Snape for allowing a werewolf behind Hogwarts walls.
> It's Draco who let him in and Voldemort, presumably, who sent him.
> Snape had nothing to do with it.
<snip>

Dana:
Snape should have made it his business to know these things because 
he is foremost a spy for the Order but him taking the vow prevents 
him from acting out because he can't make Draco fail his task and he 
promised Naricissa to keep her son from harm so Draco not being able 
to succeed bringing DEs in to the castle would be a sure death for 
Draco but Snape would not be able to let LV harm Draco, so it would 
mean Snape dies if he prevents Draco from succeeding that too, not 
just taking over killing DD. 

Snape had everything to do with Draco performing his task because he 
had to know to keep himself alive. 
To me Snape was responsible because he knew Draco's task from the 
start and as Draco implies himself bringing DEs in to the castle was 
part of this task from the beginning too and thus him taking the vow 
prevented Snape from keeping Draco from doing so and this makes him 
equally responsible just as people are claiming Lupin was responsible 
for not telling DD about Sirius being an animagus and him being able 
to enter the castle while Lupin did not open the door for him to 
enter it either. Snape willingly chose to take the vow and therefore 
he willingly let things happen as they happened and that makes him 
just as responsible for the attack taking place that night. 

And as it stands now, canon does NOT support some mysterious motif on 
Snape's part that will serve the greater good. It is just reader 
interpretation and thus opinion that there must be something more to 
it and sure it can be we'll have to wait and see but it surely isn't 
at this very moment.

Dana:  
> The only difference Snape's arrival makes is that he is
> forced to do the killing (a nice plot complication) and he sends 
> DD's body off the tower as no DD would do, preventing Greyback from 
> having DD for "afters" and allowing enough time for Snape to clear 
> the tower so that Harry doesn't come rushing out. Imagine the scene 
> without Snape. 
<snip>

Dana:
Imagine the scene without a vow hanging over Snape's head and it 
would look totally different too. 
You are implying Snape blasted DD of the tower because Greyback would 
feed on his death body while there is no canon to support that 
Greyback ever fed on death old man. He has a taste for little 
children as we see him try taking a bite out of Harry. And it is just 
opinion that it was Snape preventing this. 

The problem is Carol, you accuse me of not taking an honest 
concession but you are guilty of that too by just adding things to 
canon that aren't actually there but must be there because you 
believe Snape to be DDM. 
Snape takes precisely less then have half a page to enter the scene 
and blast DD of the tower that is it. There is no proof he knew Harry 
was there or that he knew were DD has been or what he would be doing 
that night and that Snape knew he took Harry with him. We see in the 
shrieking shack that with just one spell you can disarm everyone and 
we see him throw robes out of his wand in a blink of an eye. He could 
have secured the tower scene but he doesn't because he would have 
died. And it is still also not canon that DD would actually have died 
from the potion, he drank in the cave. He actually suggests himself 
it doesn't kill you. It was still Snape taking the vow that forced 
the events on the tower to occur as they did. 

It is just your interpretation that Snape did everything to safe 
Harry that night but Snape actually leaves before the other DEs do 
and it makes it possible for Greyback to attempt to attack Harry. The 
blond DE is still able to kill Harry if Harry hadn't evaded the AK 
thrown at him. 

Well I'll stop here and want to make the suggestion you take your own 
advice to heart and re-read the chapters your self with an honest 
concession of both sides of the argument. 
 
Carol:
> A sixteen-year-old boy deserved to be bitten by a werewolf? No 
> matter what his "contribution," he didn't deserve that.
<snip>

Dana:
That is not what I said

I said that I would understand that if Snape indeed had gotten bitten 
then he brought it on to himself. And maybe he indeed would have 
deserved the consequences of his own actions because he went there to 
take revenge on fellow students (who did not deserve to get expelled 
either just because Snape hated them). To me Snape had every reason 
to know that there was something very dangerous about Lupin and why 
he was being hidden away from the rest of the school, behind a 
murderous tree no less and if Snape still found it more important to 
get these students expelled then to accept the reasons for these 
precautions, then there is no reason for Sirius to feel responsible 
for it. Every action has its consequences and James prevented Snape 
meeting his. 

If you get in a car while you have been drinking and you drive 
yourself into a tree and lose the use of your legs because of it then 
it was your own responsibility even if someone had lent you that car 
to make it possible for you to drive one while you were drunk, it is 
still your own choice to do so. Most people know it is dangerous and 
when someone does then most people will just say he deserved what he 
got for getting behind the wheel while drunk. It is the same with 
Snape going after Lupin while he could have known it would be 
dangerous but he went anyway and I think the reason for it has been 
implied by Sirius that he did it to get the marauders expelled. 

JMHO 

Dana