Jo's OWN Words/Harry using Crucio/I am about to Rant/Danger Designating the

[sistermagpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 174099

> > Magpie:
> > It is hard not to notice the difference between Slytherin and the
> > other houses even without the clear distinction between it and 
the
> > rest of the school in every book including the last one. Not only
> > has it apparently always been based on blood Purity, the other
> > houses are all Sorted for virtues...and Slytherin isn't. I don't
> > think "cunning" or "ambition" have ever been really considered
> > virtues the way courage, wisdom and loyalty have been.
> 
> Kemper now:
> Cunning and ambition are human (not heavenly) virtues as are 
courage,
> wisdom and loyalty.
> 
> Cunning is an admirable word.  The Sorting Hat did not say 
Slytherin
> valued deceit.  Hermione is cunning (Timeturner).

Magpie:
I see a clear difference between these virtues and the others. 
Cunning is often used to indicate a lower form of intelligence--and 
animal cunning as opposed to wisdom ("bad" groups are often 
described as "cunning" because it suggests deception and 
underhandedness). And ambition, while certainly helpful, is another 
thing often warned against as selfish. If you look at a list of 
Puritan Virtue names, you will find Courage, Loyal and Learned among 
them, but not Cunning or Ambition (unsurprisingly--I think both 
would be considered bad things). Hermione certainly is cunning, but 
as I said, Slytherin values seem to me to clearly be ennobled when 
used by non-Slytherins, while when Slytherins show the values of 
other houses (like Snape and Regulus being brave) it ennobles the 
Slytherin. 

> Kemper now:
> Magpie, I think I may not understand this sentence.  What I think
> you're saying is something like: Snape is esteemed because he is
> brave, and he is not esteemed because he is cunning (I do not see 
him
> as ambitious post graveyard scene)

Magpie:
Snape is redeemed and praised for being brave--perhaps he was Sorted 
too soon. His display of this value ennobles Snape. When I think of 
times that cunning and ambition have been seen as good things in 
canon, it's when usually the Trio is using them. Iow, it's the 
Slytherin values that are ennobled by being used by non-Slytherins. 
When Snape is brave, by contrast, it is Snape being ennobled by the 
trait, not the trait being ennobled by Snape. 

Kemper:
> I understand how this is perceived by the reader.  This is Harry's
> story, we see through his eyes.  He values bravery and admires 
Snape
> for his bravery.  It is Dumbledore's perception as well, he being a
> Gryffindor.  The reader is not close to any Slytherin to see their
> take on Snape.

Magpie:
Yes, I think it's Harry's perception, the reader's perception and 
Dumbledore's perception. The Slytherin perception is not presented 
as equally valid.

Kemper: 
> Similarly or on the side, we see that Luna admires Hermione's 
brains,
> wondering why she wasn't in Ravenclaw.  Luna, the only non-
Gryffindor
> student we have any real contact with.  Does she say anything about
> any Gryffindor's bravery?  No.  

Magpie:
Luna is valued for her own bravery and is associated with her 
friends, the Gryffindors. 

Kemper:
She values wit beyond measure.  Would
> it be in her character to admire Snape for his courage?  No.

Magpie:
I think it would be in her character to admire Snape for his 
courage, sure. But I don't think that changes things one way or the 
other. 

Kemper: 
> Going back to Snape.  He doesn't seem to admire courage in others.
> Why would he?  If Voldemort could admire the virtues in another, I
> think would admire Snape and not for his courage, wisdom, or 
loyalty:
> all of which he has in spades.> Oh... what about Draco?  Nineteen 
years later and what does he think
> about his old Head of House?  "What a courageous teacher"?  or
> something like "the most cunning Slytherin to ever walk Hogwarts"?

Magpie:
The opinions of none of these people are presented as correct in 
canon, so what does it matter what they admire? Snape is redeemed by 
being couragous, not for his personality and values in other areas. 
The Slytherin pov is not being presented as equally valid.

Montims:
And yet again - I wonder if we do know the truth about Draco's 
actions. He is there with Crabbe and Goyle, yes - the pair who "'ung 
back... decided to bring you to 'im". Do we know that his time with 
Snape, the shock of DD's death, and his subsequent insight into the 
realities of LV's violence didn't change Malfoy? Do we KNOW that he 
wasn't playing a watching game, like Snape? Crabbe starts the 
violence, and all we hear from Malfoy is not to kill Harry - the 
Dark Lord wants him alive. Just like Snape. We are only
absorbing the scene through Harry's perception, and we know how we 
have been misled throughout the series...

Magpie:
We don't, which is why for me the scene was just kind of a WTF? 
moment. It seems a slight change in direction for what little 
momentum we've seen in Draco throughout the story. I can fanwank 
reasons for him for being there, but the main one always seems to be 
just so that he can be in the school. I slightly disagree with 
Ceridwen that he's playing the big bad DE there--I may be 
remembering it wrong, but it seemed like Crabbe took on that role 
and Draco was noticibly not the leader there, even being behind 
Crabbe and Goyle. He seemed a follower DE until he got distracted by 
the tiara (without, iirc, finishing telling us his thoughts on it 
outright), then he was trying to stop them from killing Harry, and 
then everything went up in flames. I admit that I, too, remembered 
Snape in the HBP being there mainly to tell everybody else not to 
kill Harry. Is it possible Draco was doing that? Actually yes, given 
what we'd seen before, but his actions were still confusing to me.

Montims:
*It doesn't matter to us*. So where is the evil I have been reading 
about? The intense house hatred and divisions? The "Slytherins are 
bad, Gryffindors good" depiction that is supposed to be there? The 
idea that Slytherins are being portrayed as inferior or lesser, that 
I have read expressed so passionately in this thread? Where in canon?

Magpie:
Um, throughout the entire series? There *is* an obvious division 
that is not healed, and Harry's nice line to his kid hardly shows 
that it's gone away. His kid is worried about being Slytherin just 
as always, and Harry's saying "You'll be great no matter what house 
you're in" in response to his brother being able to *frighten* him 
with the possibility of being in Slytherin is a nice comfort to 
Albus, not a big defense of the house's qualities. He follows it by 
saying he knew a Slytherin who was really brave--the quality of 
Gryffindor house, and then reveals that he can choose not to be in 
Slytherin anyway. Exactly as things were at the beginning of the 
series. The point isn't that there is intense hatred between the two 
houses, but that Slytherin is still the odd house out--
unsurprisingly. It remains the house with the Dark reputation--a 
reputation it seems to deserve.

-m