[HPforGrownups] Re: Jo's OWN Words/Harry using Crucio/I am about to Rant/Danger Designating the

[Kemper]

No: HPFGUIDX 174135

> > Kemper earlier:
> > Cunning and ambition are human (not heavenly) virtues as are
> courage,
> > wisdom and loyalty.
> >
> > Cunning is an admirable word. The Sorting Hat did not say
> Slytherin
> > valued deceit. Hermione is cunning (Timeturner).
>
> Magpie:
> I see a clear difference between these virtues and the others.
> Cunning is often used to indicate a lower form of intelligence--and
> animal cunning as opposed to wisdom ("bad" groups are often
> described as "cunning" because it suggests deception and
> underhandedness). And ambition, while certainly helpful, is another
> thing often warned against as selfish. If you look at a list of
> Puritan Virtue names, you will find Courage, Loyal and Learned among
> them, but not Cunning or Ambition (unsurprisingly--I think both
> would be considered bad things). Hermione certainly is cunning, but
> as I said, Slytherin values seem to me to clearly be ennobled when
> used by non-Slytherins, while when Slytherins show the values of
> other houses (like Snape and Regulus being brave) it ennobles the
> Slytherin.

Kemper now
As I was googleing and wikipediaing Puritan Virtues and finding
nothing (not saying it doesn't exist, just stating I couldn't find
them easily), a thought hit me:
thank God JKR didn't espouse to Puritan Values whatever they be!

Puritans don't value courage unless it's against the devil.
Puritans don't value wisdom.  They value being learned in the Bible.
Puritans don't value loyalty unless it's to their interpretation of
God or the pulpit.

So of course Puritans wouldn't value cunning or ambition within their
followers as either might make them think and then act outside of the
Puritan's authoritative rule.
No doubt, the Puritan authority were ambitious and manipulative if not cunning.

Here's how Merriam-Webster defines Cunning

as adjective
1 : dexterous or crafty in the use of special resources (as skill or
knowledge) or in attaining an end <a cunning plotter>
2 : displaying keen insight <a cunning observation>
3 : characterized by wiliness and trickery <cunning schemes>
4 : prettily appealing : cute <a cunning little kitten>

as noun
1: obsolete a: knowledge, learning b: magic art
2: dexterous skill and subtlety (as in inventing, devising, or
executing) <high-ribbed vault…with perfect cunning framed — William
Wordsworth>
3: craft, slyness
synonyms see art

Nowhere can it be implied that cunning is a lower form of
intelligence.  When used on pet animals, it is used to mean cute.  The
fox is sly.

"Bad" groups aren't described as cunning.  Manipulative or deceitful,
maybe.  An honorable adversary can be described as cunning.
Strategies can be cunning.  For sure, both Allies and Axis powers
hoped their strategies were.  It's a human virtue.

As I've said, this story is in the Gryffindor perspective, with
Gryffindor values.


> Magpie:
> Snape is redeemed and praised for being brave--perhaps he was Sorted
> too soon. His display of this value ennobles Snape. When I think of
> times that cunning and ambition have been seen as good things in
> canon, it's when usually the Trio is using them. Iow, it's the
> Slytherin values that are ennobled by being used by non-Slytherins.
> When Snape is brave, by contrast, it is Snape being ennobled by the
> trait, not the trait being ennobled by Snape.

Kemper now:
How is Snape redeemed and praised for being brave?  Harry tells
Voldemort that Voldemort's been artfully deceived by Snape's cunning.
That's how I read it.  Sure, Harry talks about Snape's love (which no
House claims as a virtue).  But Voldemort is more interested in
Snape's dexterous skill and subtle planning.  It is what Harry seems
to be impressed by as well.  No where does he laud Snape's courage.


> Magpie:
> Yes, I think it's Harry's perception, the reader's perception and
> Dumbledore's perception. The Slytherin perception is not presented
> as equally valid.

Kemper now:
Because it's not a Slytherin story.  It's a Gryffindor's.


> Magpie:
> Luna is valued for her own bravery and is associated with her
> friends, the Gryffindors.

Kemper now:
She is valued for her bravery by Gryffindors who value bravery and
who's perception we see most in the books.  The first book could've
been called SuperGryffindor and the Philospher's Stone.  Just like
none of the books could be called EveryHouse Potter and the Deathly
Hallows.


> Magpie:
> I think it would be in [Luna's] character to admire Snape for his
> courage, sure. But I don't think that changes things one way or the
> other.

Kemper now:
If we are assuming off canon as I did up thread, then Luna would
admire Snape's intellect and appreciate his cunning (as the two are
linked) over his courage.



>
> Kemper earlier:
> > Going back to Snape. He doesn't seem to admire courage in others.
> > Why would he? If Voldemort could admire the virtues in another, I
> > think would admire Snape and not for his courage, wisdom, or
> loyalty:
> > all of which he has in spades.> Oh... what about Draco? Nineteen
> years later and what does he think
> > about his old Head of House? "What a courageous teacher"? or
> > something like "the most cunning Slytherin to ever walk Hogwarts"?
>
> Magpie:
> The opinions of none of these people are presented as correct in
> canon, so what does it matter what they admire? Snape is redeemed by
> being couragous, not for his personality and values in other areas.
> The Slytherin pov is not being presented as equally valid.

Kemper now:
It maters based on what we've seen in canon.  It is not seen that
Snape is redeemed by his courage.  He is redeemed by his love for
Lily.  It is what Harry tells Voldemort and the spectators in the
Great Hall.  Nothing about Snape's valor.

Kemper