good and bad slytherins/Disappointment and Responsibility

[lanval1015]

No: HPFGUIDX 175182

> Debbie:
> Admittedly, I am not and have never been a Sirius fan (though my 
husband
> claims Sirius is his favorite character).  Over two years ago 
(before HBP
> was published) I argued that Sirius did not reject Slytherin 
because it
> supported his family's pureblood ideology but because he was a 
rebel at
> heart.  Needless to say, I didn't get much support for this 
hypothesis, and
> I didn't expect we'd ever see more canon to support one view over 
the other,
> so I let it drop.  But we did get new canon, and it seems to 
support my
> position, which is for the most part the same one Carol is taking.

Lanval:
Well, we must disagree on this; I don't see it at all. I'll explain 
it farther down.


> Alla:
> Maybe just as Harry did, Sirius already chose **not Slytherin**, 
but
> meeting James helped him to be sure that he wants Gryffindor and 
not
> say Ravenclaw?
> 
> Debbie:
> I infer something very different from the text.
> 
> "'Who wants to be in Slytherin? I think I'd leave, wouldn't you?' 
James
> asked the boy lounging on the seats opposite him, and with a jolt, 
Harry
> realized that it was Sirius.  Sirius did not smile.
> 'My whole family have been in Slytherin,' he said."
> 
> I think Sirius *expected* to be sorted into Slytherin and until 
James'
> remark, had no intention of fighting it, and perhaps no 
appreciation of how
> Slytherin was viewed elsewhere in the WW.  However, at this point 
he's
> already seen that Snape, who wants to be in Slytherin, has upset 
Lily.
> 

Lanval:
Sirius knows that the Sorting *can* be influenced already. That's 
important. 

The fact that he does not smile can be interpreted in many ways; 
mine would be that he already agrees somewhat that Slytherin isn't 
all that his family holds it to be, and James' undisguised scorn for 
Slytherin only confirms it. 

Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but you are suggesting that Sirius 
just didn't want to spoil it with his new buddy, and therefore caved 
and asked for Gryffindor because he didn't want to lose Jame's 
approval?

Sorry, but I can't buy that. Had it been Peter or Remus in this 
scene, yes. But Sirius, for all his James-worship, is not that 
insecure. Which is precisely why I think that, had Sirius still been 
completely supportive of the Slytherin/Black ideology at that point, 
he would have bristled at James' remark. After all James just 
insulted his entire family. Kids usually take offense at that, 
unless relations with their family are at an exceptionally low point.
 
> va32h:
> Sorry Carol, I think you are letting your dislike of Sirius color 
your
> perception here. And I don't blame you, since I have a character 
or two
> that I simply cannot stand (cough*TONKS*cough) and tend to 
intrepret
> that characters actions through a particular prism.
> 
> There is simply no evidence that Sirius chose Gryffindor *only* for
> James, or even *for* James at all.
> 
> Debbie:
> We are all drawing inferences from the text.  There is no direct 
evidence
> either way.  However, there's nothing to indicate that Sirius *was*
> motivated by principle in his rejection of Slytherin.
> 

Lanval:
I don't think any of us here are arguing that we're dealing with 
fixed principles in this scene; I know I'm not. More likely 
disillusion, perhaps fostered by a childhood as unhappy as Snape's. 
We don't know when Sirius' parents began to disapprove of their son 
and favor their second-born.


> va32h:
> Here are some of the things Sirius says about his family, in OoTP:
> 
> "Because I hated the whole lot of them: my parents with their pure-
> blood mania, convinced that to be a Black made you practically
> royal...my idiot brother soft enough to believe them..."
> 
> Debbie:
> Sirius was not speaking of why he chose Gryffindor over 
Slytherin.  He was
> speaking of why he left home at 16.  This was five years later, and
> therefore the passage (and the others that I snipped) don't 
provide any
> indication of his thinking when he was eleven.  We don't really 
even know
> whether the outward conflict with his parents didn't erupt as a 
result of
> his being sorted into Gryffindor (and probably throwing that in 
his mother's
> face whenever he had the chance).
> 

Lanval:
As I stated above, no, we don't know when it began. Your version 
carries no less or more weight than mine, or anyone else's. Perhaps 
JKR will give us some clues in the encyclopedia she's planning.


> Prep0strus:
> It seems Sirius would never use the term mudblood.
> 
> Debbie:
> I'm sure that later on Sirius did not use that term.  However, we 
don't know
> what terms are in Sirius' common vocabulary at age 11.   Lily's 
muggleborn
> status is not mentioned in the scene, (Snape stops before 
mentioning that
> Petunia was a muggle and since they'd mentioned a letter from 
Dumbledore to
> Petunia, the exchange does not infer that Lily is muggleborn).

 Since this
> seems to be Lily's first encounter with James and Sirius, they 
don't know
> that Lily is a muggleborn, so there's no reason for Sirius to use 
the term
> at all.
> 

Lanval:
However, we *never* witness Sirius using the term, while we do know 
that by the time he was an adult, he *had* rejected the pureblood 
beliefs, and says so in very strong terms.

That's important too.



> 
>  Lanval:
> And please, just because James gets on Severus, and appears to be a
> bit of a spoiled brat, in no way means that he was less-than-
> loveable to the rest of the world.
> 
> Debbie:
> Actually, this is part of my problem.  I don't find either one to 
be
> loveable, as 11-year-olds, as 15-year-olds, or as 21-year-olds. 

Lanval:
And see, that's my problem also. I'm no Snape fan whatsoever, but I 
have no difficulty feeling for young Snape, even finding him 
likeable in a rather pathetically touching way, and I can certainly 
forgive his shortcomings as a child. Why is it that so many people 
who dislike Sirius see everthing he does, even as a young child, in 
the most negative way possible? It really puzzles me.


Debbie: 
 The Lily
> who wrote the letter to Sirius from Godric's Hollow sounds as 
though she's
> been corrupted by James and Sirius (with its airy tone and 
unnecessary dig
> at Petunia).  James seems just as cocky as ever.  This is a bit 
off the
> topic of Sirius, but JKR has completely failed to convince me that 
after
> Lily's principled rejection of Snape she would substitute his 
tormentors
> (and Sirius remained Snape's tormentor until his death, so this 
was not an
> adolescent thing) as her best male friends, and in the case of 
James, her
> lover and husband.
> 
> 


Lanval:

"Corrupted"?? Corrupted how? We might as well say then that she was 
corrupted by Snape, who gave her *his* view of the WW as a child, 
and made more than a few digs at Petunia. And please, James and 
Sirius Snape's "tormentors"? There is no proof of this sort of one-
sidedness in the books.

Lily clearly has made up her mind by fifth year, and rightly so, 
that Dark Arts and budding DE's are bad news. Sev did not. 

I absolutely loved that letter. It proves once and for all that Lily 
did not merely tolerate that nasty Sirius Black because he was her 
husband's best friend, but loved him as a friend, as a fellow Order 
member and fighter against LV, and as godfather to her son. If you 
want to belittle the meaning of this letter by 
suggesting "corruption", that's your right of course.




> Debbie:
> If, as it's suggested in Snape's memories, that Snape's first 
encounter
> with James and Sirius occurred in the compartment on the Hogwarts 
Express,
> then James and Sirius have no idea whether Snape is a Dark Arts
> practitioner.
> 
>  Significantly, Sirius does not state that he's sick of his 
family, or that
> they're a bunch of filthy purebloods.  The only thing we learn is 
tht Sirius
> decides to cast his lot, if possible, with the jaunty boy who 
shows promise
> as a partner in (school) crime.  It suits his rebellious nature to 
do so.
> 

Lanval:

Conjecture. And if Sirius later speaks to Harry of Snape as knowing 
dark curses by the time he started school, or being into the Dark  
Arts, that would of course not have manifested itself the moment the 
kids set sight on each other on the train. But it probably showed in 
the weeks to come. 


Debbie:
> We know that later Sirius espouses the politically correct 
mantras, which he
> may have learned through his association with James (there's a 
good chance
> he only associated with other pureblood fanatics before going to
> Hogwarts), but he doesn't fully internalize them.  He tells Harry 
in OOP,
> with some disgust, that the Blacks believe that being pureblood is 
akin to
> being royalty.  However, James and Sirius act like royalty 
themselves.  He
> thinks house elves are servants beneath his notice.


Lanval:

More conjecture. Sirius dislikes KREACHER. Not house-elves in 
general.

Nor do I get the royalty part. When do Sirius and James act like 
*royalty*? 

And why is it that house-elves treatment in the WW is a major point 
of disapproval among readers, but when Sirius speaks out against 
mistreatment of house-elves, it suddenly gets degraded to a 
Politically Correct Mantra?


Debbie:
> JKR herself has said in an interview that Sirius is fond of 
espousing
> principles, but that he doesn't really live up to them.  We learn 
a lot
> about Sirius from how he treats his inferiors:  with utter 
contempt. 



Lanval:
I thought what JKR says in interviews was not to be taken into 
serious account? 

Where are all those inferiors that Sirius treats with utter contempt?
There's Kreacher, that's it. No, IMO it does not include Peter, or 
anyone Sirius might have felt superior to. The conversation with 
Hermione centered around Barty Crouch and the way he treated *his* 
inferiors, which I take to mean people and elves who find themselves 
in a work-related, hierarchic, dependent relationship with him.


Debbie:
Sirius
> was in the Order, but Dumbledore takes a lot of backsliders onto 
his team,
> so a failure to live up to his principles would hardly have 
disqualified him
> from the Order.  However, I continue to believe -- and have found 
no canon
> to refute it -- that the higher principles Sirius espoused didn't 
manifest
> in his acts because he didn't come to them on his own.  He learned 
them from
> the Potters.  I'll bet that Sirius had clashed with his family 
before he
> went to Hogwarts, and if he was offended by their principles, it
> was because of the way his wacko mother pushed them on him.
> 

Lanval:
Mother Black certainly did nothing to endear herself or her views to 
her son. But neither is there any canon that Sirius did not come to 
any moral decisions by himself, and depended completely upon others 
to tell him what to think. He has repeatedly been called *bright* in 
canon. Bright people tend to be independent thinkers. IMO Sirius is 
not that weak a character.



Debbie:
> Sirius' loyalty to James allowed him to reject everything his 
family
> represented:  their offensive ideology, the Dark Arts.  However, 
Sirius'
> best quality is his fierce, dog-like loyalty to his friends.  He 
would not
> hesitate to lay down his life for his friends, but I still think 
it's not
> too much of a stretch to conclude that his principles are his 
friends'
> principles.  And that's not meant as an insult or an indictment of 
Sirius.
> He was a better person for his friendship with James and his 
decision to
> choose Gryffindor over Slytherin.  Just look at what Snape's 
opposite choice
> (because he clearly had the bravery to be a Gryffindor) did to him.
> 

Lanval:
But isn't that stating that neither Sirius nor Snape were capable of 
independent thought? Nor was James for that matter then, because he 
just spouted off what his parents believed. What about them? Where 
does independent, critical thinking start, and how much of it is 
just groupthink, peer pressure, parroting of familiar beliefs?


> Lanval:
> Also: if we're talking arrogance, we might take a look at young
> Snape. Who obviously has a bit of a superiority thing going.
> 
> I'm glad DH finally cleaned up with some fanon misconceptions about
> Snape. He was no innocent abused lamb, ganged up on from all sides
> for no reason. He spies, he snipes, he lies, he helps to drive a
> wedge between two sisters, and shows some pretty worrisome 
character
> traits. (That JKR still somehow manages to make Little Snape
> heartbreakingly, pathetically touching, is quite an accomplishment,
> I think).
> 
> Debbie:
> In fairness to Snape, the deck was always stacked against him.  He 
was from
> a bad neighborhood, wore funny clothes, had a bad home life and 
must have
> felt like a misfit.  And when he dared to reveal himself to Lily 
and
> Petunia, Petunia threw all of it in his face.  So, yes, Snape was 
a bit
> defensive on the train.  But arrogant bullies thrive on taking 
advantage of
> misfits, which only sets off an endless cycle of antagonism.
> 

Lanval:

Funny clothes, bad home life, misfit? Sounds like the deck was 
awfully stacked against Harry too. But I don't remember young Harry 
spying, lying, dropping branches on kids, etc.

I feel for Snape in that scene where things go so wrong for him. 
Petunia jumps on him for spying on them, and mentions his family in 
a somewhat derogatory tone, but Snape snaps right back, no? 

'Wouldn't spy on *you* anyway,' he added spitefully, '*You're* a 
muggle.' He repeats it later on the train, but stops himself just in 
time because he doesn't want to spoil it any further with Lily. His 
feeling vastly superior comes through loud and clear though.




Ceridwen:
Snape doesn't seem to use 'Mudblood' before going off to Hogwarts.
He seems to have fallen in with a bad crowd by being Sorted into
Slytherin. He's a bit arrogant about being a Wizard when Petunia is
just a Muggle, but she started the disparagement at the playground by
loftily pointing out his shortcomings - that Snape boy who lives at
Spinner's End. Petunia doesn't like Snape from the beginning. He
gets back at her by pointing out *her* shortcomings.

Lanval:
Not really. He points out that her entire existence isn't really 
worth his attention. 


Ceridwen:
James was an arrogant snob. He doesn't like Slytherin, he laughs at
Snape for wanting to be Sorted into it, and drags Sirius along. Not
that Sirius needed much dragging. He already liked James, and wanted
his approval. So he says that maybe he'll buck family tradition - by
the way, where are you going again? And, wonder of wonders, he's
Sorted into Gryffindor. Just as James wanted to be.


Lanval:
First of all, Snape comes across as no less arrogant to me in the 
train scene. About the Sorting of Sirius, until JKR tells us there's 
no way of knowing how much James influenced Sirius, or how much 
Sirius was able to influence the Sorting Hat.


Ceridwen:
Some people have speculated that Snape was corrupted by being Sorted
into Slytherin. Prefect Lucius Malfoy greets him at the Slytherin
table, and we hear him using the word 'Mudblood' in SWM. Lily also
implies that he uses it a lot, against others, not against her. He's
all right with the unnamed awful things his housemates do to other
students. He's heading down a dark and futile road. This, by some,
is laid at Slytherin House's door.



Lanval:
He's heading down that road filled with hearty approval. The sole 
fact that he was able to maintain a strong friendship with a 
Gryffindor girl, possibly against strong opposition/disapproval from 
his own house proves, IMO, that Snape was strong-willed enough to 
decide for himself what to believe, and when to set his beliefs 
aside. 
He liked Slytherin and approved of its mindset before he even 
entered it (that he was aware of the pureblood thing is IMO hinted 
at by his hesitation, when Lily asks him about whether being muggle-
born makes a difference). Nothing much changes. He takes to it 
willingly, like a fish to water, he may be influenced at times, but 
I don't see him as ever being "corrupted". Again, brilliant minds 
tend to be independent thinkers and not sheep. And Snape has a 
brilliant mind, just like Sirius does. If Snape had ever had deep 
moral objections to Slytherin Ways, and later DE Ways, he would have 
acted on them. 


Ceridwen:
So, why not Sirius, and even Lily, being corrupted to Gryffindor
values and prejudices? They go to all classes with their housemates,
while they only have certain classes with other houses. They eat
with them. They sleep in the same dorms. They spend time in the
same common room. Quidditch and House Points competitions encourage
an 'us against them' mentality. They're thrown together with
housemates more than with students from any other house. When the
housemates are arrogant take-charge types, charismatic people like
James, they learn to agree with their stated principles. Who wants
to be ostracized from their residence?

We see Sirius backing down on the train when James doesn't flinch.
Sirius states that his entire family has been Sorted into Slytherin.
Instead of James saying something like, "I shouldn't have said that
about Slytherin", or, "I didn't mean to insult your family", he says
he *thought* Sirius was all right. Sirius, who obviously liked
James's company, says he may buck tradition, then asks where James
thinks he'll be Sorted. To this point, he's been in a family that
admires Slytherin traits. He's lived with Pureblood ideology. At
eleven, he may want to get around his parents, assert his
independence, but not on ideological grounds. Sirius is a rebel
against what he knows. James's so-far unexplored grass is greener,
in his eyes.

Lanval:
I don't see Sirius here as "backing down", merely acknowledging that 
his whole family has been in Slytherin. If Sirius were so weak-
willed and eager to please James, would he have mentioned his family 
allegiance to Slytherin? 


Ceridwen:
Why not Lily? She had no idea about the WW, except for what Snape
told her. She was ripe for induction into principles of her house
and housemates. The books show Muggleborns slowly assimilating into
the WW, leaving their Muggle families behind them. Why not Lily?
Since kids see things in stark contrast, without mitigating shades of
gray, the values she learns in Gryffindor, including contempt of
Slytherin House, become hers wholeheartedly. She's surrounded by
this all day, every day, for ten months of the year. The little time
spent with Snape at home, even before school, was nothing compared to
the total imersion of Hogwarts. She was not only enticed away from
her Muggle family, but from her friends outside of her school house.
In the end, we get a Lily who makes fun of a gift her sister gave 
her.

Lanval:
Not to get too deep into the Lily/Petunia relationship here, but I 
think that by the time Lily wrote that letter, a LOT of things have 
been said, mostly by Petunia, which were not exactly beneficial for 
the survival of sisterly affection. To lay all that at the feet of 
some vague, malignant "Gryffindor indoctrination" is in no way 
supported by canon.

I'm not denying House influence on individual students entirely, 
heck, that's the nature of boarding schools. But I see no reason to 
use it either as an excuse (in Snape's case), or view it as Total 
Indoctrination (in Lily's and Sirius's case, where there seems to be 
a tendency to belittle their life choces as nothing more than 
sheepishly following suit. 

Ceridwen:
If house exerts an influence, then all houses, not just Slytherin,
exert an influence, in my opinion.

Lanval:
I agree.