[HPforGrownups] Re: good and bad slytherins/Disappointment and Responsibility

[elfundeb]

No: HPFGUIDX 175210

Much bandwith has been consumed on this subject, so I'll try to limit my
response to direct questions, and then hold my peace.

Lanval:
Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but you are suggesting that Sirius
just didn't want to spoil it with his new buddy, and therefore caved
and asked for Gryffindor because he didn't want to lose Jame's
approval?

Sorry, but I can't buy that. Had it been Peter or Remus in this
scene, yes. But Sirius, for all his James-worship, is not that
insecure. Which is precisely why I think that, had Sirius still been
completely supportive of the Slytherin/Black ideology at that point,
he would have bristled at James' remark. After all James just
insulted his entire family. Kids usually take offense at that,
unless relations with their family are at an exceptionally low point.

Debbie:
No, not at all.  Sirius is a strong and forceful character.  He is also a
rebel, symbolized by the first thing we ever learn about him, that he owns a
flying motorcycle.  I also believe it quite likely that he had conflicts
with his mother long before he set off for Hogwarts. I can't see Sirius
playing the role of dutiful son; it's just too inconsistent with his
personality.

It is a reasonable inference from Sirius' remark about Slytherin house that
he's expecting to be sorted into Slytherin and he's not thinking of the
house in terms of ideology.  Accordingly, I see his decision to go elsewhere
as an eleven-year-old's rebellion against a shrewish mother, who may already
prefer the dutiful, unquestioning son.  As a sheer act of rebellion, it's
perfectly in character for Sirius.

Lanval:
However, we *never* witness Sirius using the term, while we do know
that by the time he was an adult, he *had* rejected the pureblood
beliefs, and says so in very strong terms.

That's important too.

Debbie:
Yes, that is important, and I never meant to imply that Sirius was evil or
that he secretly looked down upon Muggleborns.  However, because my posts
are responding to opinions that are rosier than my view, they tend to
highlight the negative side.

Lanval:
"Corrupted"?? Corrupted how? We might as well say then that she was
corrupted by Snape, who gave her *his* view of the WW as a child,
and made more than a few digs at Petunia. And please, James and
Sirius Snape's "tormentors"? There is no proof of this sort of one-
sidedness in the books.

Debbie:
I don't want to imply that because someone acts badly it's ok for the target
to react in kind, but it was Petunia who started that trail of corruption.
As for tormenting Snape, I don't know how else to read the comment (from
SWM) that James and Sirius target Snape "because he exists."  One of Snape's
worst traits is to react in kind to insults, a habit that tends to boomerang
on him, which led him to become a bully himself.  While not excusable, it is
a mitigating factor that I don't see on James and Sirius' side.  The first
derisive comment ("Who wants to be in Slytherin?  I think I'd leave,
wouldn't you?") came from James.


Lanval:
Lily clearly has made up her mind by fifth year, and rightly so,
that Dark Arts and budding DE's are bad news. Sev did not.

Debbie:
Lily had the influence of Gryffindor, where she spent most of her time.
Snape did not.  Environment does contribute to bad decisions.  I'm not
denying that Snape made terrible decisions, but Lily's choice was easier.
Let's just say I'm not enamored of the Sorting Hat these days, considering
what it does to impressionable eleven-year-olds.

Lanval:
I absolutely loved that letter. It proves once and for all that Lily
did not merely tolerate that nasty Sirius Black because he was her
husband's best friend, but loved him as a friend, as a fellow Order
member and fighter against LV, and as godfather to her son. If you
want to belittle the meaning of this letter by
suggesting "corruption", that's your right of course.

Debbie:
It was the Petunia comment that bothered me most.  Ceridwen has made the
points I would make elsewhere, but the portrait of Lily that appears
elsewhere, who maintains an unpopular friendship and makes a very principled
choice to end it, who was genuinely concerned about her relationship with
her sister, does not square well with the flip comments she makes in the
letter.  She's ridiculing her unmagical sister, and It sounds more like a
comment that Sirius would make than one she would make, which is why I used
the term "corrupted."  It would be different if their relationship had
deteriorated to the point where they no longer had any contact, but it
obviously has not if Petunia is sending a vase as a present.

Lanval:
And see, that's my problem also. I'm no Snape fan whatsoever, but I
have no difficulty feeling for young Snape, even finding him
likeable in a rather pathetically touching way, and I can certainly
forgive his shortcomings as a child. Why is it that so many people
who dislike Sirius see everthing he does, even as a young child, in
the most negative way possible? It really puzzles me.

Debbie:
I'm not really a Snapefan either, though I find him the most compellingly
drawn character in the book.  But the Snape-Sirius/James relationship
touches some very raw nerves with me.  My siblings and I were the socially
awkward misfits (though my home life was vastly better except for the lack
of money), and were subject to merciless bullying.  While I was not a
primary target, it took a severe emotional toll on all of us, and to this
day I have a visceral dislike of bullies.  For what it's worth, I have the
same reaction to Fred and George, even though I understand that JKR doesn't
see them in the same light.

So while I can intellectually appreciate Sirius' good qualities, his
behaviour -- particularly as a child and adolescent -- puts me on my guard
and makes me suspect his altruism.  I cannot help it.

Lanval:
But isn't that stating that neither Sirius nor Snape were capable of
independent thought? Nor was James for that matter then, because he
just spouted off what his parents believed. What about them? Where
does independent, critical thinking start, and how much of it is
just groupthink, peer pressure, parroting of familiar beliefs?

Debbie:
Eleven-year-olds are notoriously subject to groupthink and peer pressure.
It's an age when they're only beginning to delve behind their received
wisdom and form their own views, so while they're capable of independent
thought, they're taking lots of new information, and beginning to process
old information in a different way.  James' comment about Gryffindor
(complete with imaginary sword) does not read to me as a principled
position; he's relying on received wisdom, IMO.  From my experience (I have
two teenagers), eleven-year-olds frequently fall back on their parents,
especially when embarking on a new adventure, whether it be Hogwarts or
middle school.  In Sirius' case, though, he may already have been winging
it.

Lanval:
I thought what JKR says in interviews was not to be taken into
serious account?

Debbie: You got me here.  I've been saying for years that I don't trust
anything JKR says off the cuff.
Lanval:
Where are all those inferiors that Sirius treats with utter contempt?
There's Kreacher, that's it. No, IMO it does not include Peter, or
anyone Sirius might have felt superior to. The conversation with
Hermione centered around Barty Crouch and the way he treated *his*
inferiors, which I take to mean people and elves who find themselves
in a work-related, hierarchic, dependent relationship with him.

Debbie:
I was including Peter, who Sirius believes is vastly inferior to him and
treats very poorly.  But if we're going to limit it to his employees, our
universe consists of Kreacher, whom Sirius treated badly and Regulus did
not.

Lanval:
Sirius dislikes KREACHER. Not house-elves in
general.

Nor do I get the royalty part. When do Sirius and James act like
*royalty*?

And why is it that house-elves treatment in the WW is a major point
of disapproval among readers, but when Sirius speaks out against
mistreatment of house-elves, it suddenly gets degraded to a
Politically Correct Mantra?

Debbie:
According to Dumbledore, in OOP ch. 37:  "[Sirius] regarded [Kreacher] as a
servant unworthy of much interest or notice.  Indifference and neglect often
do more damage than outright dislike."  In other words, servants are
unworthy of his interest.  Dumbledore also claimed that Sirius was kind to
house elves in general, but we never see any such kindness, or have any
indication that Sirius ever had meaningful contact with other house elves.
His sympathy for Winky derived from his antipathy for Crouch, and thus is
suspect.  If Sirius had been shown being kind to other beings of any kind, I
would not have labeled his views as politically correct.

As for the "royalty" comment, there are a number of indications (including
SWM) that James and Sirius knew they were the cleverest students in school
and behaved accordingly.  Note Lily's remark about James' fat head.

Debbie
who tries to be fair to Sirius, but his behaviour sets off signals in my
brain that are very hard to overcome.


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