good and bad slytherins/Disappointment and Responsibility

[Ceridwen]

No: HPFGUIDX 175196

Alla:
> I do not really care about Petunia's shortcomings for the purpose 
of this argument :) I do not like her at all, but my point is that at 
the age of eleven, Snape seems to know quite clearly IMO that those 
who are muggleborns have lesser rights than purebloods in WW.( pause 
when he answers Lily and what he wants to call petunia IMO show that).

Ceridwen:
Petunia's shortcoming, as far as Snape is concerned, is the same 
thing you cite, that she is a Muggle.  I do think the altercations 
between Snape and Petunia began when she said, "I know who *you* 
are.  You're that Snape boy."  And tells Lily, in case Lily missed 
the implication, where he lives.  To Harry, this sounds like a "poor 
recommendation."(US, 665)  Petunia brings class into it, and Snape, 
as a normal child, retaliates.

I'm reading the part where he hesitates.  It seems, to me, that he 
might want to explain a lot more, but doesn't, hence the hesitation.  
Lily has just asked if the Hogwarts letter will really come by owl.  
Snape says that, since she's Muggle-born, someone from Hogwarts will 
talk to her parents.  This is when she asks if being Muggle-born 
makes a difference.  For a child under eleven, who hasn't been to 
Hogwarts yet, he had to have gotten that information from someone 
older who understands how this works.  Probably his mother.  If so, 
she told him how the Evanses will be contacted, and maybe more.  
Maybe a lot more, like about Muggle prejudice.  I see this pause not 
as him deciding to hide his own prejudices, but weighing whether he 
ought to tell her what he heard from whoever told him about Muggles 
and Hogwarts, then deciding against it.  (Page 666).

See, to me, this mixes in with the thread about Hermione creating new 
identities for her parents.  Of course Snape, as a child raised by a 
witch, sees Muggles as inferior.  This isn't just a Slytherin thing, 
it's WW-wide.  Muggles, to wizards and witches, are inferior.  It's 
WW policy to wipe inconvenient memories from Muggles' heads, without 
permission.  So, yeah, Snape does see Petunia as a Muggle, his 
inferior.  I don't see where anyone in the WW sees them any 
differently.  Even Arthur, who is the most Muggle-friendly person 
we've been shown, acts like Muggles are inventive children, not 
equals.  At least, that's how he reads to me.  Not prejudiced, but 
not magic-blind, either.

Alla:
If Snape did not know that, how would he know to throw **this** at 
Petunia that she is just a Muggle? And not, say find something wrong 
with her looks for example - eleven year old girl certainly would be 
sensitive about that as well.

It seems to me that Snape knows really well where muggleborns and 
muggles stay in WW based on this. Speculation of course, but I 
believe based on canon inference, I think word Muddblood rolled off 
his tongue at that age.

Ceridwen:
Petunia being a Muggle is a class thing.  The WW sees Muggles as 
inferior.  Petunia brought class into it in the beginning, and Snape 
retaliated with what he has been taught is the truth: he may live in 
a bad part of town, but he's a wizard, and Petunia's just a Muggle.  
So there for Spinner's End and the river.  And, what if he thought 
Petunia looked just fine?  Why would he bring in her looks if so?  It 
isn't as if he had a lot of time, that first time, to decide which 
tack to take.  He's poor, Petunia's a Muggle.  It's actually an even 
comparison, given the prejudices of the WW.

I don't know if Mudblood rolled off his tongue easily at that age.  
He certainly seemed to like Lily.  He hung out with her, and I think 
he enjoyed having more information than she did.  I think he did his 
research, finding out how a Muggle-born would be contacted, in order 
to impress her with his knowledge.  He doesn't treat her with 
contempt, even as children, when he enjoys getting his own back at 
Petunia.

His parents fought.  Lily asks about this.  Still fighting.  It could 
be that one of the things his mother throws at his father is that 
he's a Muggle.  Snape may be half magical, but he's half Muggle, 
too.  I imagine that this caused some emotional reactions in a young 
child.  But his mother, or his grandparents, whoever he went to for 
his information, don't seem to treat him as any less for being a half-
blood.  And, he doesn't treat Lily like an idiot for not knowing 
things about the WW, which a lot of kids this age might do.  I think 
he might have gotten his first explanation about how Muggle-borns are 
viewed in the WW when he asked if Lily would get her letter by owl.  
To this point, he was just looking at Lily's magical power and seeing 
everything admirable in them.

Alla:
Of course all Houses exert influence. I would argue that per books 
Slytherin's influence is the most damaging one, but that is not my 
point.

I read Debbie's point that Lily was corrupted into loving Sirius. And 
I do think that person with such strong personality as Lily cannot be 
corrupted into loving a person, house influence or not. IMO of course.

Ceridwen:
Any person can be "corrupted" into seeing things, or even people, in 
a different way, if they live a lifestyle that encourages such 
attitudes.  I think Snape was corrupted to think it was okay, even 
right, to look down on Muggle-borns.  I think Lily was corrupted to 
look down on Slytherins.  Neither showed any such leanings, in my 
opinion, before starting Hogwarts.  A child's training is critical.  
Attitudes are passed on through house-mates and teachers, in a 
boarding school setting moreso than by parents.  She might not be 
threatened or humiliated into holding her house's opinions, but she 
can be persuaded through constant reinforcement.

Just my opinion, of course, based on how I'm reading DH right now.

Ceridwen.